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Old May 15 2014, 07:10 AM   #16
Mario de Monti
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Re: 9 PDF

Wow!! This is just - WOW!!! Simply amazing the kind of passion you put into this project, and I hope many future fan productions will benefit from the result.
But even if you´re not going to build full-size sets and just enjoy building cardboard models (like myself) it looks like it´s going to be a LOT of fun and a dream come true.

Thanks a lot and keep up the great work

Mario
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Old May 15 2014, 01:29 PM   #17
Robert Simmons
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Re: 9 PDF

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
This - is - awesome! Fascinating!

I'm impressed seeing the amount of passion for accuracy, this is a great project. Kudos!

While my own deck plan project is still in its WIP infancy, eventually I will have to rely on accurate reproductions.

I'm most curious to see how you will handle Dr. McCoy's office.
Both the "Journey to Babel" set drawing and Matt Jefferies' paper model of the set (much smaller than yours, obviously) had the skull shelf set too far back.

In my main deck 7 draft I had already tried to fix that, but now it seems that the desk is too much in the way.

Again, great job, I'll definitely stay tuned.

Bob
Thank you. Concerning McCoy's skull cabinent...I actually had not that occur to me. But since you mentioned the skull cabinet in McCoy's office, I'll start giving some attention before I get to it. As with all the models the stage 9 Babel floor plans is my starting point and TOS stills are what I am fine tuning from.


Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
Wow!! This is just - WOW!!! Simply amazing the kind of passion you put into this project, and I hope many future fan productions will benefit from the result.
But even if you´re not going to build full-size sets and just enjoy building cardboard models (like myself) it looks like it´s going to be a LOT of fun and a dream come true.

Thanks a lot and keep up the great work

Mario
Thank you. For me it is not about cardboard models. I don't have the money to pay for a minimum 110 foot by 160 foot facility and the lumber and supplies to nail down faithfully now a 100% accurate reproduction on on everything as seen on Stage 9. But on a macro level working it all down to this size scale makes it more easy to keep focus for me. Fans and fan films have recreated portions of it with some success. But seeing it not 100% really has been nagging at me for a while wanting to see this problem fixed as far as correct profiles on consoles, proper room spacing, etc. so it's the old adage if you want something done I'll have to do it myself. I chose 1/12th scale for this project cause it makes for me at least cleaner translation on scaling to full size measurements. And the larger scale will allow for tighter measuring to minimize errors. And I felt that if I was going to go through the process of doing this to satisfying my nagging curiousity I might as well blueprint and share the thing so everyone else can benefit from it or it would be pointless even doing it to begin with. I would like to see fans with 100% accurate sets or at least put into their hand the information necessary to make them 100%.
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Old May 15 2014, 02:12 PM   #18
Dennis
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Re: 9 PDF

Concerning what MGagen pointed out about angles and measurements on the bridge - IIRC this is also the way that Jimm Johnson and company actually proceeded on building the Exeter bridge. The view screen "slice" was where they made up the difference between ideal angles and actual working measurements on the other stations.
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Old May 15 2014, 02:29 PM   #19
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Re: 9 PDF

Dennis wrote: View Post
Concerning what MGagen pointed out about angles and measurements on the bridge - IIRC this is also the way that Jimm Johnson and company actually proceeded on building the Exeter bridge. The view screen "slice" was where they made up the difference between ideal angles and actual working measurements on the other stations.
That would explain why I came up 4 inches shorter combined on the platforms on both sides of the view screen. When I relaid out the bridge that had me scratching my head trying to figure out how to proceed to balance out everything where it was all the same. What MGagen pointed was providing the missing piece of the puzzle I wish I had when I was trying to figure out best to reassemble that bridge set.
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Old May 15 2014, 02:34 PM   #20
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Re: 9 PDF

Yeah, basically it's a practical impossibility to construct all of those stations to exact angles so you design them to some rationalized measurements that are "close enough" - which requires an eventual fudge factor to close up the circle.

Exeter's bridge was never a full circle, of course. Still, it made sense to use measurements to the nearest 1/4 inch (or whatever) rather than trying to cut to angles.
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Old May 15 2014, 02:42 PM   #21
Robert Simmons
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Re: 9 PDF

Dennis wrote: View Post
Yeah, basically it's a practical impossibility to construct all of those stations to exact angles so you design them to some rationalized measurements that are "close enough" - which requires an eventual fudge factor to close up the circle.

Exeter's bridge was never a full circle, of course. Still, it made sense to use measurements to the nearest 1/4 inch (or whatever) rather than trying to cut to angles.
Well that might explain why the inner measurement in the platforms were all over the place varying from 35 17/32 inches to 35 7/8 inches to 35 13/16 inches to 35 3/4 inches. When I build my model that measurement dictated 36 inches on the nose. I just chalked up all variation on a the platforms due to how fast they were churning these out in their one month in that hangar.
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Old May 15 2014, 04:13 PM   #22
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Re: 9 PDF

So it sounds as if their tolerances were a little less than 3/8 inch. We have no way of knowing what the practical building tolerance was on the Desilu version.
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Old May 15 2014, 04:52 PM   #23
Robert Simmons
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Re: 9 PDF

Dennis wrote: View Post
So it sounds as if their tolerances were a little less than 3/8 inch. We have no way of knowing what the practical building tolerance was on the Desilu version.
Well I have determined from the outset that I'm reaching deep and hard with my best crack at it to get it as close to the original bridge whatever their tolerances were. In the final builder's proof of the bridge I build for 9 PDF the differences will be nearly imperceptable to the untrained eye, some more visible, and others will be pretty pronounced and will be pretty obvious.

I'm building rulers for every TOS still of the bridge I work from. I've done some early dry runs of checking the McMaster measurements against the stills. From those early tests I can clearly see where he is accurate and where he is off on the outer bridge ring. I decided to wait until I had more of the bridge built before diving in on checking all those measurements each before building the final revised builder's proof of the bridge. One thing I noticed when building my McMaster study model is he is almost 100% accurate with a couple of exceptions in the center of the bridge. His accuracy and completeness seems to fall apart on the outer bridge ring. I don't know if this is due to his heart liked the center of the bridge more, and that is where he invested his most effort. Or he was rushing and had less time to give the outer bridge ring the same time and attention as he did the center of the bridge.
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Old May 16 2014, 03:58 PM   #24
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Re: 9 PDF

One thing I neglected to mention up till now is prioritizing the authority of any original set surviving pieces since they will be the final word on measurements and patterns. We know the helm and pedestal and the captain's chair are intact and that measurements have been taken to varying degrees on both. But I would like to call out for anyone knowing or having access to any surviving articles to arrange to have additional photos taken with larger rulers to nail down exact measurements as a baseline to set down sizes within the original overhead drawings to help establish measurements out from the center of the bridge. I've seen the photo set out there of the helm but would like some pics of the pedestal from a distance from different sides with large rulers. Those pics do provide useful information and I initially started building the corrected model with the helm, but additional pics from all sides with large full length measurements would lock in some open questions of over all length and angles. When surviving items are not available then the next method to establish measurements measuring stills against known measurements as starting points. Then after that then acetate traces of TOS stills against the model. In that order. Trust but verify.

EDIT: Michigan Mirror universe guys....that photos set of the helm would be a good place to start to make any corrections as you build from the McMaster bridge plans. You could be building the components out of your garages and have some stuff ready when you find your building. That's what Jimm Johnson and Joel Sarchett of Exeter did before they rented the hangar to film in which was smart. I'll try to get some adjusted outer ring measurements to you before you guys start on your outer ring parts. But just a few minimal critical ones since I'm not keen on prerelease goodies.
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Old May 16 2014, 08:37 PM   #25
Robert Simmons
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Re: 9 PDF

c64man1701 wrote: View Post
I really like what you are doing here, Finding plans and information to get started on my project is been hard. Michigan really needs a complete TOS set for film makers to use on their projects. Love it
Send me a PM. I have some concerns I would like to address. Just want to go over a few things with you as to the magnitude of the serious commitment you are ready to jump into. Not something to take lightly.
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Old May 18 2014, 06:01 PM   #26
Robert Simmons
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Re: 9 PDF

In preparation from MGagen's point of the 35.5 degree platform segments to make for a larger viewscreen platforms I've been working up a large scale protractor marked in 10 and 5 degrees to pencil in the angles when I begin on the final model of the bridge. Oversize helps to correct any measuring errors.

Spent the week rebuilding the library of stills. Two seasons to go.

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Old May 20 2014, 03:32 AM   #27
MGagen
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Re: 9 PDF

Robert,

I'm so glad my study of the bridge is proving useful.

I don't believe that any of the studio bridge layouts specified angles with degrees on them. They would have been made for carpenters, not engineers. The preliminary sketch is a good guide to how it was probably done: "This piece is this long and that piece is that long and they intersect like this." The angles would have just fallen out in the process.

But I believe Jefferies was very smart to anticipate that there would be a cumulative error which he could make up for with his viewscreen wedge. My analysis of the wedges by degrees is an after-the-fact illustration that the wedges weren't symmetrical and that Jefferies knew this when he drafted the soundstage layout.

One other point to keep in mind when comparing stills of the bridge: There were actually two bridges and there are minor visual differences between them! The first was constructed of wood at the old Culver City stage and was used for both The Cage and WNMHGB. Not all wedges were wild in this version. Later, when series production moved to Gower Street, parts of the bridge set were brought over from Culver, but the outer consoles were replaced by fiberglass casts off one of the better constructed consoles. The new ring was then made with all wedges wild. Also, the upper section of each wedge and the lower section (starting with the black backboards with the blinkies) were independent. They could remove each independently in order to insert a camera. As such, the alignment of the top halves with the bottom halves my vary a bit from picture to picture.

M.
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Old May 20 2014, 01:16 PM   #28
Robert Simmons
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Re: 9 PDF

MGagen wrote: View Post
Robert,

I'm so glad my study of the bridge is proving useful.

I don't believe that any of the studio bridge layouts specified angles with degrees on them. They would have been made for carpenters, not engineers. The preliminary sketch is a good guide to how it was probably done: "This piece is this long and that piece is that long and they intersect like this." The angles would have just fallen out in the process.

But I believe Jefferies was very smart to anticipate that there would be a cumulative error which he could make up for with his viewscreen wedge. My analysis of the wedges by degrees is an after-the-fact illustration that the wedges weren't symmetrical and that Jefferies knew this when he drafted the soundstage layout.

One other point to keep in mind when comparing stills of the bridge: There were actually two bridges and there are minor visual differences between them! The first was constructed of wood at the old Culver City stage and was used for both The Cage and WNMHGB. Not all wedges were wild in this version. Later, when series production moved to Gower Street, parts of the bridge set were brought over from Culver, but the outer consoles were replaced by fiberglass casts off one of the better constructed consoles. The new ring was then made with all wedges wild. Also, the upper section of each wedge and the lower section (starting with the black backboards with the blinkies) were independent. They could remove each independently in order to insert a camera. As such, the alignment of the top halves with the bottom halves my vary a bit from picture to picture.

M.
Everything helps. Thank you for the insight. I know from a friend that Mario Putzman was involved in the design and execution of the bridge and a couple of other sets. I've been meaning to check more into his involvement. My intent from the outset has been to have the final output expressed in feet and inches. ( sorry about that metric dudes. ) And your illustration using angles to identify that to me is fair game. And if it is valid why question it? It explain some funny stuff I had a hunch on about the bridge but could not put my finger on. Oh by the way I just had it dawn on me that I'll need to go back and mark the protractor in 2.5 degree marks since those will be centerline as center for 5 degrees per segment. DUH! ( facepalm )
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Old May 20 2014, 07:17 PM   #29
Tallguy
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Re: 9 PDF

Robert, what a terrific project. Now that I think on it I'm amazed that the gold-ish standard for the bridge is the McMaster plans and those are almost 40 years old!

I'm looking forward to your engineering and briefing rooms.
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Old May 21 2014, 10:41 AM   #30
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Re: 9 PDF

Wow! Looking great!
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