RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 147,611
Posts: 5,835,888
Members: 26,154
Currently online: 500
Newest member: shirlehue

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Elogium
By: Michelle Erica Green on Aug 28

Trek Swype Keyboard
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Meaney In Talks For McGuinness Role
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Stewart And Son To Act Together
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Quinto: If I Wasn’t An Actor…
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Star Trek Beyond Update
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Red Shirt Diaries Returns Next Month
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

ISS Astronaut May Join Trek Fan Film
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Quinto Sports New Trek Uniform
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Star Trek: Renegades Released Early
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 11 2014, 10:33 PM   #31
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Or maybe it just means that the same designers use similar styles, so anything they design will have some similarities regardless of its supposed era of origin.

And of course they used the same interior sets, because it saves money. Heck, that's the only reason TNG ever used leftover 23rd-century designs in the first place -- because it couldn't afford to design new ones at first. Again, there's a lot of compromise and settling involved in creating television, so it's unwise to assume that anything we see is purely the result of the creators' intentions and wishes. Sometimes it's more the result of expediency.
__________________
Written Worlds -- Christopher L. Bennett's blog and webpage
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 12 2014, 12:11 AM   #32
Dukhat
Rear Admiral
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Christopher wrote: View Post
Even so, it sounds like it wasn't because they wanted the K'tinga class to have been around in the 2150s, just because they didn't like the design they were offered and didn't have a better "period" design and thus had to settle.
While what you're saying is exactly the case, their decision was still a silly one. If they considered the design "unfinished" or simply just didn't like it, they could still have used the ship, just at more of a faraway distance so that whatever issues they had with it were not visible clearly. Take TOS-R. In several instances (the Gorn ship comes to mind), there were images of ships on the screen that were so small that low-poly CGI models were able to be successfully used instead of a more high-poly, complicated CGI mesh.
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12 2014, 12:41 AM   #33
Fer
Commander
 
Fer's Avatar
 
Location: Pittsburgh PA area
Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Christopher wrote: View Post
I think it's pretty clear that the "D7" in ENT was there by mistake, that it was meant to be a different class of ship but they didn't have the design ready in time so they had to make a substitution. So as far as I'm concerned, the D7/K'tinga didn't exist in the 22nd century and the "actual" ship in that episode's events was something else.
Works for me.
__________________
http://fersforum.blogspot.com
Fer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12 2014, 02:25 AM   #34
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Dukhat wrote: View Post
While what you're saying is exactly the case, their decision was still a silly one. If they considered the design "unfinished" or simply just didn't like it, they could still have used the ship, just at more of a faraway distance so that whatever issues they had with it were not visible clearly.
I certainly don't disagree. Using the K'tinga that early was a terrible compromise. And I think that if they had the chance to go back and do it again, they'd change it.
__________________
Written Worlds -- Christopher L. Bennett's blog and webpage
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 12 2014, 02:57 AM   #35
Enterprise1701
Fleet Captain
 
Enterprise1701's Avatar
 
Location: Sol III, Sector 001, 2015 C.E.
Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I'll pass on the calendar. I'll just change my wallpaper to some fantastic free fan art. Why do these calendars repeatedly go back to a Klingon ship design deemed not good enough for TV? It's not bad by any means, but I'm quite bored of it now.
Actually this D4 class battle cruiser design was created after the last-minute reuse of the D7 model in ENT but never made it into any episodes.
Not exactly. The ship would have been used, but the producers didn't like its lights, so they asked for the physical model of the K'T'Inga to be used instead. Just one of many boneheaded UPN decisions in that show.
If only one of The Romulan War or earlier ENT novels had re-inserted the unrealized D4 class design back into Star Trek fiction.

Christopher wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I disagree that the other ENT Klingon ships we saw were "more appropriate" for a prequel - they all looked contemporary to the ones in the classic movies and TNG-era.
That's mistaking real-world advances in miniature detailing/CGI for in-universe advances in technology
I think that if the Borg strive for logic, efficiency, and perfection, then Borg "cubes" and "spheres" should have much smoother hulls. Come to think of it, wouldn't that have saved the TNG design teams a lot of time?
Enterprise1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12 2014, 03:07 AM   #36
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
I think that if the Borg strive for logic, efficiency, and perfection, then Borg "cubes" and "spheres" should have much smoother hulls. Come to think of it, wouldn't that have saved the TNG design teams a lot of time?
Indeed. As I pointed out in Greater Than the Sum, a cube isn't an efficient shape at all. The most efficient way to encase a volume is a sphere, because it uses the least material and minimizes the distance (and therefore the length of any necessary cabling, piping, or corridors) between the furthermost points within it.

The design of Borg ships wasn't about real-world efficiency, but about conveying an impression to the television audience. We associate straight lines and right angles with technology, while rounded shapes seem more natural. (Plus, there was the fact that gigantic spherical ships had been done already.) And the texture of a Borg cube looked industrial, further adding to the impression of oppressive mechanization.
__________________
Written Worlds -- Christopher L. Bennett's blog and webpage
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 12 2014, 04:51 AM   #37
Avro Arrow
Commodore
 
Avro Arrow's Avatar
 
Location: Secret Arctic Base
Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Even so, it sounds like it wasn't because they wanted the K'tinga class to have been around in the 2150s, just because they didn't like the design they were offered and didn't have a better "period" design and thus had to settle.
While what you're saying is exactly the case, their decision was still a silly one. If they considered the design "unfinished" or simply just didn't like it, they could still have used the ship, just at more of a faraway distance so that whatever issues they had with it were not visible clearly.
This may have been subsequently debunked, but my understanding was that the producers' problem with the design wasn't that they didn't like the overall design or anything like that, but just that it didn't have enough windows.

Here's a passage on MA from Rob Bonchune on the subject:

Rob Bonchune wrote:
The only other original design that was also chopped (that I remember now) was the John Eaves Klingon D-6 or D-5 [sic] that I included in my calendar image for 2006. It was originally done FOR FREE for Star Trek: Enterprise by Koji [Kuramura], who stayed up 36 hours to do it for the show. It looked great, but then the "producer(s)" said, "put more windows on it". We said "no" (you have to understand that we did so much extra, that at that point it was the straw that broke the camel's back when they were being mindlessly trivial and unappreciative). So, in their infinite wisdom, they choose to use a low-resolution K't'inga model (from a timeline over 100 years later) we had lying around. Because that was much more logical than a ship that needed 10 more windows that no one would EVER notice!!!!
MA page link
Original source of quote link

(There's a second, similar quote on the MA page, but I won't reproduce it here.)

If this is in fact true, it seems like an incredibly petty reason not to use the model. But it also seems the producers weren't interested at using the model at a farther distance to hide their perceived issues.

Christopher wrote: View Post
I certainly don't disagree. Using the K'tinga that early was a terrible compromise. And I think that if they had the chance to go back and do it again, they'd change it.
I was really hoping they would have replaced the K'tinga model in that episode for the Blu-Ray release, but no such luck.
Avro Arrow is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 12 2014, 06:34 AM   #38
Dukhat
Rear Admiral
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Christopher wrote: View Post
I certainly don't disagree. Using the K'tinga that early was a terrible compromise. And I think that if they had the chance to go back and do it again, they'd change it.
I'm assuming you meant that if they could go back in time to when the episode was being produced they'd change it. Because they certainly didn't bother to change it for the DVD or BluRay releases

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
This may have been subsequently debunked, but my understanding was that the producers' problem with the design wasn't that they didn't like the overall design or anything like that, but just that it didn't have enough windows.
Thanks for the clarification; when I said "lights" earlier, I meant "windows."

John Eaves commented that it was incredibly silly and nit-picky decisions like these from UPN that severely hampered their overall efforts working on the show. And I won't even get into UPN's idea of a "rock band of the week."
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12 2014, 08:59 AM   #39
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Christopher wrote: View Post
Or maybe it just means that the same designers use similar styles, so anything they design will have some similarities regardless of its supposed era of origin.
ENT's designers weren't STIII's or TNG's. Bill George designed the original Bird of Prey and Rick Sternbach designed the Vor'cha, neither of whom worked on ENT.
And of course they used the same interior sets, because it saves money. Heck, that's the only reason TNG ever used leftover 23rd-century designs in the first place -- because it couldn't afford to design new ones at first. Again, there's a lot of compromise and settling involved in creating television, so it's unwise to assume that anything we see is purely the result of the creators' intentions and wishes. Sometimes it's more the result of expediency.
Trek's set designers are masters of recycling sets into new configurations, yet they stuck to the Klingon interior design established in STIV. These people turned the Enterprise-E corridors into a Ferengi ship in "Aquisition" and made Deep Space Nine corridors into the Enterprise-J, all it took was a little paint.

I personally would have loved to see them use the same Klingon design but with shiny new silver walls instead of the same old rusty look - but again, they were either instructed to make no changes (something I consider very likely, having read about the Scimitar's design evolution on John Eaves' site), or failed to do so through their own lack of imagination which case they unimaginatively gave us unchanged Klingon designs across 2 centuries.

I'd rather use a backstory which fits what we see (the one from Ishmael) than play mental gymnastics and pretend we actually saw something different. It's a nice fit for their strength too - in "Unexpected", the Enterprise NX-01 is no match for the D7 battle cruiser. In TOS, the Enterprise has an edge over it, and in TNG and DS9 it's canon fodder.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12 2014, 04:58 PM   #40
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I'd rather use a backstory which fits what we see... than play mental gymnastics and pretend we actually saw something different.
I await your explanation for why Saavik felt the need to get extensive cosmetic surgery and vocal-cord reconstruction after Spock's funeral.

If we'd seen the K'tinga more than once in the 22nd century, then it would be justified to try to account for it. But if something is done only once and never again -- like "James R. Kirk" or just about everything "The Host" established about the Trill -- then it's probable that the creators themselves changed their minds and no longer wanted it to be part of the universe. In which case it's perfectly appropriate to treat it as a mistake and relegate it to the apocrypha pile.
__________________
Written Worlds -- Christopher L. Bennett's blog and webpage
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 12 2014, 08:03 PM   #41
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Christopher wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I'd rather use a backstory which fits what we see... than play mental gymnastics and pretend we actually saw something different.
I await your explanation for why Saavik felt the need to get extensive cosmetic surgery and vocal-cord reconstruction after Spock's funeral.
A completely different situation. Deliberately keeping a design aesthetic unchanged over 225+ years of canon vs. recasting a character.
If we'd seen the K'tinga more than once in the 22nd century, then it would be justified to try to account for it. But if something is done only once and never again -- like "James R. Kirk" or just about everything "The Host" established about the Trill -- then it's probable that the creators themselves changed their minds and no longer wanted it to be part of the universe. In which case it's perfectly appropriate to treat it as a mistake and relegate it to the apocrypha pile.
Which explains the ENT Bird of Prey and everything else I pointed out pefec-- oh, wait.

I get that you wish Klingon technology showed a clear evolution, but it doesn't. What's wrong with citing a Ishmael's backstory which actually fits what's seen?
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12 2014, 08:19 PM   #42
Dimesdan
Rear Admiral
 
Dimesdan's Avatar
 
Location: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Dimesdan
Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I get that you wish Klingon technology showed a clear evolution, but it doesn't. What's wrong with citing a Ishmael's backstory which actually fits what's seen?
Because it's not what happened in one of his novels.
__________________
People in third world countries are so lucky they don't have to deal with these problems. - TheGodBen

I'm on twitter now. @DimesDaniel
Dimesdan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 13 2014, 03:59 AM   #43
Corran Horn
Vice Admiral
 
Corran Horn's Avatar
 
Location: I-L
Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Paging NX-01/Akira debate...
__________________
"I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do drugs. I play video games, which I think is a far superior addiction to any of those other ones. "
Corran Horn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2014, 04:42 AM   #44
SicOne
Commodore
 
Location: Omaha, NE
Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Corran Horn wrote: View Post
Paging NX-01/Akira debate...
Ohhhh, shit...
SicOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2014, 04:47 AM   #45
Avro Arrow
Commodore
 
Avro Arrow's Avatar
 
Location: Secret Arctic Base
Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
This may have been subsequently debunked, but my understanding was that the producers' problem with the design wasn't that they didn't like the overall design or anything like that, but just that it didn't have enough windows.
Thanks for the clarification; when I said "lights" earlier, I meant "windows."
Oops, sorry... I wasn't trying to be a jerk and nitpick the difference between lights and windows. I had actually forgotten you said that, and was attempting to elaborate on the line in Christopher's post in the quote where he said "they didn't like the design they were offered".

But, yeah, agreed that it was a silly (almost inexplicable from my POV) decision.
Avro Arrow is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:31 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.