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Old May 10 2014, 08:12 PM   #16
publiusr
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Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

I might have called it an E-4
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Old May 10 2014, 09:43 PM   #17
F. King Daniel
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Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

IIRC, in The Final Reflection and the TMP blueprint pack, the "D" stands for "Drell", a Klingon serpent from which the basic shape of their ships is derived. Although the Klingon Fighter in ID lacked the distinctive neck and head and had a rather insectoid rear, I think it's close enough to fit into that classification (especially since we've never actually seen the Drell which all the ships are meant to resemble!)

I'll pass on the calendar. I'll just change my wallpaper to some fantastic free fan art. Why do these calendars repeatedly go back to a Klingon ship design deemed not good enough for TV? It's not bad by any means, but I'm quite bored of it now.
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Old May 10 2014, 09:50 PM   #18
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Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I'll pass on the calendar. I'll just change my wallpaper to some fantastic free fan art. Why do these calendars repeatedly go back to a Klingon ship design deemed not good enough for TV? It's not bad by any means, but I'm quite bored of it now.
Actually this D4 class battle cruiser design was created after the last-minute reuse of the D7 model in ENT but never made it into any episodes.
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Old May 10 2014, 10:02 PM   #19
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Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
IIRC, in The Final Reflection and the TMP blueprint pack, the "D" stands for "Drell", a Klingon serpent from which the basic shape of their ships is derived.
I've always assumed that the Klingon ship designs are based on the Imperial trefoil. I mean, they have three points arranged triangularly, the foremost being the longest.

All the Trek cultures have ships shaped like their insignia - the Romulans and Cardassians, obviously, the Ferengi Marauder has the "clawed dog-eat-dog" appearance of the Alliance logo, the Vulcans have ships that feature a triangular point piercing a circle, even the Federation has a circle with two stalks.
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Old May 10 2014, 10:32 PM   #20
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Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I'll pass on the calendar. I'll just change my wallpaper to some fantastic free fan art. Why do these calendars repeatedly go back to a Klingon ship design deemed not good enough for TV? It's not bad by any means, but I'm quite bored of it now.
Actually this D4 class battle cruiser design was created after the last-minute reuse of the D7 model in ENT but never made it into any episodes.
Yeah, it always kind of bugged me that the D7s were used in both ENT and TNG (although I suppose the TNGs were actually K'Tinga class, since they were usually a reuse of the footage from TMP). The idea that the Klingons used the same design for 200 years is a bit too much imho. I get the "if it's not broke don't fix it" mentality, and it's certainly worked fine for Soyuz, but part of the fun is seeing how the Klingons ships have changed over the years... which is why I was thrilled when the Vor'cha class was introduced. So this variation on the Klingon ships as an earlier ENT era version works for me.

And despite my complaint, the D7/K'tinga design is one of my favorite ship designs.
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Old May 10 2014, 11:33 PM   #21
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Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

I think it's pretty clear that the "D7" in ENT was there by mistake, that it was meant to be a different class of ship but they didn't have the design ready in time so they had to make a substitution. So as far as I'm concerned, the D7/K'tinga didn't exist in the 22nd century and the "actual" ship in that episode's events was something else.
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Old May 11 2014, 05:26 AM   #22
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Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Not impressed with the images for 2015 except for the cover.


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Old May 11 2014, 07:42 AM   #23
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Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I'll pass on the calendar. I'll just change my wallpaper to some fantastic free fan art. Why do these calendars repeatedly go back to a Klingon ship design deemed not good enough for TV? It's not bad by any means, but I'm quite bored of it now.
Actually this D4 class battle cruiser design was created after the last-minute reuse of the D7 model in ENT but never made it into any episodes.
Not exactly. The ship would have been used, but the producers didn't like its lights, so they asked for the physical model of the K'T'Inga to be used instead. Just one of many boneheaded UPN decisions in that show.
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Old May 11 2014, 09:49 AM   #24
F. King Daniel
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Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Yep, like it or not, it wasn't a mistake but a choice on behalf of the producers to use the D7/K'tinga in "Unexpected"

I'm a fan of the old novel Ishmael, where the Klingons acquired their ships and technology from their former slavers, the Karsid Empire (who may or may not be the Hur'q), 600 years ago. I think it works as a pretty neat explanation for why Klingon ships barely change between ENT and DS9 (the ENT Bird of Prey is almost identical but for shorter wings and having more weapons than it's STIII-DS9 successor). One could even wonder if the "new flagship" Neg'Var, which had the same ancient rustbucket interior as the rest of the Klingon fleet, was perhaps newly discovered on a long-lost Karsid outpost.
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Old May 11 2014, 09:55 AM   #25
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Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
IIRC, in The Final Reflection and the TMP blueprint pack, the "D" stands for "Drell", a Klingon serpent from which the basic shape of their ships is derived.
I've always assumed that the Klingon ship designs are based on the Imperial trefoil. I mean, they have three points arranged triangularly, the foremost being the longest.

All the Trek cultures have ships shaped like their insignia - the Romulans and Cardassians, obviously, the Ferengi Marauder has the "clawed dog-eat-dog" appearance of the Alliance logo, the Vulcans have ships that feature a triangular point piercing a circle, even the Federation has a circle with two stalks.
You're right, but it seems silly to me for species to shape their vessels after their insignia. I'd like to think there are better reasons for it, like the shapes being warp dynamic or something.

That may explain the prevalence of vaguely avian shapes among Trek aliens, but I guess not why nobody else uses the saucer/hull/nacelles configuration which has worked so well for Starfleet for 200 years.
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Old May 11 2014, 04:12 PM   #26
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Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

A year without a "ship in drydock" and/or Captain Christopher's F-104? Finally.
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Old May 11 2014, 04:42 PM   #27
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Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Yep, like it or not, it wasn't a mistake but a choice on behalf of the producers to use the D7/K'tinga in "Unexpected"
Even so, it sounds like it wasn't because they wanted the K'tinga class to have been around in the 2150s, just because they didn't like the design they were offered and didn't have a better "period" design and thus had to settle. It's important to understand that TV producers don't have unlimited time and money to achieve whatever they want. A great deal of what ends up on screen is the result of the creators making compromises, settling for what they can manage rather than what they really want. That's why so many creators are happy to back and retcon things when they have the chance. The later retcons should be taken as more indicative of the creators' true intentions. So the fact that the K'tinga was never used again in ENT, that it was replaced with a different, more period-appropriate design, proves that it wasn't what the creators really wanted. It was just what they decided to settle for that one time, until they could find a better alternative.
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Old May 11 2014, 05:48 PM   #28
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Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

I disagree that the other ENT Klingon ships we saw were "more appropriate" for a prequel - they all looked contemporary to the ones in the classic movies and TNG-era. The Raptor and D5 classes, for example, echo TNG's Vor'cha-class. The ENT Bird-of-Prey, other than shorter wings, is almost unchanged from the version in STIII and beyond. Hence my thinking the D7/K'tinga is a fine fit.
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Old May 11 2014, 09:33 PM   #29
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Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I disagree that the other ENT Klingon ships we saw were "more appropriate" for a prequel - they all looked contemporary to the ones in the classic movies and TNG-era.
That's mistaking real-world advances in miniature detailing/CGI for in-universe advances in technology -- the same mistake people have been making for years when they complain that NX-01 looked "too advanced" for the 22nd century. Both the Starfleet and Klingon designs look more "advanced" because they were created later. If the creators of TOS had had modern resources, their ships would've looked more modern too.

The point is that, however it looked to our eyes and our superficial assumptions of what "looks advanced" (which is a really lousy standard for judging actual advancement, by the way), it's different from the K'tinga. And that's clearly what the creators wanted all along, since they never reused the K'tinga ship. So this is one of the many, many cases where what we see onscreen should not be taken with slavish literalism. This isn't a documentary. The creators of a television show are trying to approximate a hypothetical fictional future, and some of those approximations are worse than others.
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Old May 11 2014, 10:16 PM   #30
F. King Daniel
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Re: Ships of the Line 2015 Calendar

Christopher wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I disagree that the other ENT Klingon ships we saw were "more appropriate" for a prequel - they all looked contemporary to the ones in the classic movies and TNG-era.
That's mistaking real-world advances in miniature detailing/CGI for in-universe advances in technology -- the same mistake people have been making for years when they complain that NX-01 looked "too advanced" for the 22nd century. Both the Starfleet and Klingon designs look more "advanced" because they were created later. If the creators of TOS had had modern resources, their ships would've looked more modern too.
Nope, I'm saying that ENT's Klingon ships look the same as the ones we saw in the movies, in TNG and DS9. Clearly, the new designs seen were intended to echo 24th century Klingon ships. Advances in CGI in no way dictate art direction - in fact they do the exact opposite, giving far more freedom than before. It was a choice to keep the look unchanged.
The point is that, however it looked to our eyes and our superficial assumptions of what "looks advanced" (which is a really lousy standard for judging actual advancement, by the way), it's different from the K'tinga. And that's clearly what the creators wanted all along, since they never reused the K'tinga ship. So this is one of the many, many cases where what we see onscreen should not be taken with slavish literalism. This isn't a documentary. The creators of a television show are trying to approximate a hypothetical fictional future, and some of those approximations are worse than others.
Yet they used a virtually identical Bird of Prey design, and unchanged interior sets from the rest of Trek. I think there is more than enough evidence to interpret the creators intent was to not rock the boat and not deviate from what came before(/after), which leads me to think the intent is that Klingon technology remains stagnant between the 2150's and 2370's.
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