RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,908
Posts: 5,387,953
Members: 24,718
Currently online: 562
Newest member: Tribblemaker

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing November Trek Comic
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Pegg/Wright Trilogy In The Works
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Star Trek: The Compendium Rebate Details
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Gold Key Archives Volume 2
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Takei Documentary Wins Award
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Cumberbatch To Voice Khan
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Shaun And Ed On Phineas and Ferb
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

New Ships Coming From Official Starships Collection
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

Trek Stars Take On Ice Bucket Challenge
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

Retro Review: Profit and Lace
By: Michelle on Aug 16


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 6 2014, 12:09 PM   #16
Mytran
Fleet Captain
 
Mytran's Avatar
 
Location: North Wales
Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

For some reason, Kahless being a perfect mimic reminds me of those early Scooby-Doo stories where Shaggy was an expert ventriloquist and could "throw" his voice completely convincingly.

Fantastic silliness!
Mytran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 6 2014, 01:27 PM   #17
ssosmcin
Rear Admiral
 
ssosmcin's Avatar
 
Location: ssosmcin
Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

Lana: "Captain Lammers!"
Archer: "Nice read, Velma."
__________________
"Tranya is people!"
ssosmcin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 6 2014, 02:27 PM   #18
CommishSleer
Fleet Captain
 
CommishSleer's Avatar
 
Location: Way back of nowhere
View CommishSleer's Twitter Profile
Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

I just thought these guys were a mix of Spock and Kirk's impressions of them and the computer records about them.

The computer records about Lincoln aren't going to be totally accurate. There's still a lot of speculation about him today. Whether he was really that much of a humanitarian etc. Surak seemed a bit of a jerk to me or was that just Spock thinking everyone hates him.
Maybe there's a thousand random facts about Kahless (some true, some not) in the computer and they've just chosen to use that one since the bad guys need some help at that stage.
CommishSleer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 6 2014, 02:50 PM   #19
Mario de Monti
Captain
 
Mario de Monti's Avatar
 
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

Or maybe the mass murderer Kahless is simply not the same person as the founder of the Klingon culture Kahless! I think it´s safe to assume there´s more than one person with that name in Klingon history

Mario
__________________
"Do you give me attitude, Spock?" - "I´m expressing multiple attitudes simultaneously, Sir. To which are you referring?"
Mario de Monti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 6 2014, 03:08 PM   #20
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

I guess it depends on the nature of the "founder-Kahless". The factoids we are given establish him as a famed warrior from a couple of thousand years back, and we know that such people in Earth history are shrouded in myth when comparable timespans are involved (King Arthur, say). But if Kahless was also the ruler of a fairly well organized empire, it's highly unlikely that the Unforgettable could have been forgotten: history books on him ought to be

a) numerous
b) written back in his heyday already, by people in the know
c) not rewritten by his enemies, as his heritage appears victorious and unchallenged
d) hence, pretty reliable.

We know rather exactly who Gaius Iulius Caesar was, despite there having been dozens of leaders of that name around the time, each contributing chapters to Roman military and political leadership history and even to the succession of emperors (heck, the first emperor, Octavianus "Augustus", was named Gaius Iulius Caesar for a while, too!). There's no ambiguity about the "one" Gaius Iulius Caesar. And Kahless is bigger than that.

Sure, Kahless is also half Jesus Christ, but nobody wrote about Jesus Christ when he lived and died because back then he was considered a nobody. Kahless was already famous in his life (and, supposedly, in his death, although we haven't heard the story of that yet). So there wouldn't be any "gospel" of Kahless, composed ex post facto, just dull factual writings with the mythology scabbed onto that and, if necessary, easily peeled away again.

There's even the scenario in which the Klingons were starfaring already during Kahless' reign. Whether with indigenous ingenuity or using hardware taken from their Hur'Q slavers, this would provide them with advanced means of records-keeping as well, making Kahless all the more historical.

I guess that one is the most interesting scenario: Kahless comes from such a primitive setting that he can be credited with forging the first sword, but comes to evict interstellar overlords and give his people the stars... But something more mundane is probably closer to the truth.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 6 2014, 04:28 PM   #21
albion432
Lieutenant
 
Location: New Orleans, LA
Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
The computer records about Lincoln aren't going to be totally accurate. There's still a lot of speculation about him today. Whether he was really that much of a humanitarian etc.
The only ones who tend to speculate on the true nature of Lincoln's character in order to cast him in a bad light are those who are more likely to wear white hoods and burn crosses. The amount of first hand documentation we have on the Civil War, and on Lincoln himself, is so extensive it's mind boggling. There have been over 400 books written about Lincoln- more than on any other historical figure in history. If any man deserves the high praise history has bestowed upon him, it's Lincoln.
albion432 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 6 2014, 04:47 PM   #22
Marsden
Captain
 
Marsden's Avatar
 
Location: Getting killed so the captain can have tea later.
Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

Timo wrote: View Post
I guess it depends on the nature of the "founder-Kahless". The factoids we are given establish him as a famed warrior from a couple of thousand years back, and we know that such people in Earth history are shrouded in myth when comparable timespans are involved (King Arthur, say). But if Kahless was also the ruler of a fairly well organized empire, it's highly unlikely that the Unforgettable could have been forgotten: history books on him ought to be

a) numerous
b) written back in his heyday already, by people in the know
c) not rewritten by his enemies, as his heritage appears victorious and unchallenged
d) hence, pretty reliable.

We know rather exactly who Gaius Iulius Caesar was, despite there having been dozens of leaders of that name around the time, each contributing chapters to Roman military and political leadership history and even to the succession of emperors (heck, the first emperor, Octavianus "Augustus", was named Gaius Iulius Caesar for a while, too!). There's no ambiguity about the "one" Gaius Iulius Caesar. And Kahless is bigger than that.

Sure, Kahless is also half Jesus Christ, but nobody wrote about Jesus Christ when he lived and died because back then he was considered a nobody. Kahless was already famous in his life (and, supposedly, in his death, although we haven't heard the story of that yet). So there wouldn't be any "gospel" of Kahless, composed ex post facto, just dull factual writings with the mythology scabbed onto that and, if necessary, easily peeled away again.

There's even the scenario in which the Klingons were starfaring already during Kahless' reign. Whether with indigenous ingenuity or using hardware taken from their Hur'Q slavers, this would provide them with advanced means of records-keeping as well, making Kahless all the more historical.

I guess that one is the most interesting scenario: Kahless comes from such a primitive setting that he can be credited with forging the first sword, but comes to evict interstellar overlords and give his people the stars... But something more mundane is probably closer to the truth.

Timo Saloniemi
You really should stick to Star Trek.

I think everyone is over analyzing a bit, but why not, it can be fun.

But it was "good" vs. "evil"

Why is Ghengis Khan even there? Because he was a conquerer? Wasn't Kahless something of a counquerer? Plus, Klingons are sneaky. The mystic Viking warrior crap was a long way off, and they didn't pay those two stunt people playing GH and Zora any dialouge, so it had to be Green, who seemed to already be a leader, or Kahless. Why would Ghengis Khan ever submit to be a foot soldier to someone else, being the leader of the largest empire yet established in Earth history? Why would Kahless, any less, not want to be king of the evil side? I think if they were better portrayals of their actual selves, they would have set on each other much more than they did, which was nil. You can argue that they were only cooporating as long as they needed to, but I still think they three of them would have been fighting from the instant about who was the leader and not passively let "Green" take over.


It goes back to Roddenberry's concept of conquerer bad, diplomat good. So, Kahless is bad. Surak is good.

SCOTT: It's a confrontation of some sort. Those are all figures out of history. Notoriously evil.
__________________
"A man either lives life as it happens to him, meets it head-on, and licks it. Or he turns his back on it and starts to wither away."

Last edited by Marsden; May 7 2014 at 03:51 PM.
Marsden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2014, 04:14 AM   #23
Avro Arrow
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

Of course Klingons are good at mimicking voices. It's because of those multiple redundant larynxes they all have!
__________________
VOTE in the TV & Media Reboot-Mania Avatar Contest!
Avro Arrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2014, 05:27 AM   #24
Nebusj
Rear Admiral
 
Nebusj's Avatar
 
View Nebusj's Twitter Profile
Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

albion432 wrote: View Post
The only ones who tend to speculate on the true nature of Lincoln's character in order to cast him in a bad light are those who are more likely to wear white hoods and burn crosses. The amount of first hand documentation we have on the Civil War, and on Lincoln himself, is so extensive it's mind boggling. There have been over 400 books written about Lincoln- more than on any other historical figure in history. If any man deserves the high praise history has bestowed upon him, it's Lincoln.
Without disputing that Lincoln is one of those rare figures who deserves to be as famous as his reputation suggests, that abundance of documentation doesn't mean that there isn't room for doubt about who he was or what he did.

For an utterly trivial example, consider: we do not know exactly what he said in his address at Gettysburg. The drafts of his speech are not perfectly consistent, and wouldn't bind him rigorously to the exact words he used, and newspaper accounts vary, in some cases enormously. What the crowd reaction to the speech was is impossible to determine given the abundance of inconsistent documentation available.

If we can't know with reasonable certainty the proceedings of three minutes, witnessed by thousands of people and reported on widely in the press at the time, and remembered by its witnesses for decades after, there's room for reasonable people to question the great themes of his life.
Nebusj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2014, 06:22 AM   #25
albion432
Lieutenant
 
Location: New Orleans, LA
Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

Nebusj wrote: View Post
For an utterly trivial example, consider: we do not know exactly what he said in his address at Gettysburg. The drafts of his speech are not perfectly consistent, and wouldn't bind him rigorously to the exact words he used, and newspaper accounts vary, in some cases enormously. What the crowd reaction to the speech was is impossible to determine given the abundance of inconsistent documentation available.
Interesting, I was actually not away of that. It's sad to say the same sort of thing is still pretty prevalent even today. Most of the details the general public remembers and believes about major incidents are usually nothing more than speculation made by the talking heads on the 24 hr cable networks, which is often completely wrong. By the time the real facts are discovered and revealed, the public's attention has moved on to the next headline and those real facts tend to be forgotten.

Nebusj wrote: View Post
If we can't know with reasonable certainty the proceedings of three minutes, witnessed by thousands of people and reported on widely in the press at the time, and remembered by its witnesses for decades after, there's room for reasonable people to question the great themes of his life.
While it's true we cannot know with certainty what another man, contemporary or historical, truly feels about anything, there is little room to doubt Lincoln's sincerity or earnestness when it comes to "the great themes of his life" (and of course I'm not implying you have done so in any way with your post). However, he was very consistent about where he stood on the convictions he's famous for holding, and it's pretty clear what those close to him felt about the quality of his character. If you've not read it, Team of Rivals is one of the best books about Lincoln and is highly recommended.
albion432 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2014, 12:47 PM   #26
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

You really should stick to Star Trek.
As opposed to what?

But it was "good" vs. "evil"
Of course, the question here might be, was it?

That the Excalbians say that the teams are divided along those lines might be sufficient proof to the contrary. Why would they give the game away?

Interestingly, the dialogue suggests that other characters were previously captured and forced to play the game, with "power" as the prize for victory; we aren't told who those were (were Kahless, Green or Lincoln perhaps among them?) or whether they won or lost. Were those games about good vs. evil (too?), or about something else?

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2014, 04:09 PM   #27
Marsden
Captain
 
Marsden's Avatar
 
Location: Getting killed so the captain can have tea later.
Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

Timo wrote: View Post

But it was "good" vs. "evil"
Of course, the question here might be, was it?

That the Excalbians say that the teams are divided along those lines might be sufficient proof to the contrary. Why would they give the game away?


Timo Saloniemi
Your reply shows I didn't express my point well, I blame myself, of course.

What i meant by "evil" in quotes that it was in the perception of the Federation characters that people like Kahless and Ghengis Khan are evil. So, the Excalibans wanted to know, "What do mean by evil?"

For example, Lincoln was commander in chief during one of the wars that most of his people died, and he sent many of them to their deaths, as he was in command.

But the Federation people didn't consider him evil.

Ghengis Khan created the largest, stable in his life time, nation in current Earth history there by creating trade routes and causing east west cultural exchange and commerce, and he was considered by them evil.

So, it's not really what they did, but why similar actions by different people are considered alternately "good" or "evil".

So, back to Kahless. In the minds of most people on the Enterprise, Kahless is like a really horrible entity, "Kahless the Unforgettable, the Klingon who set the pattern for his planet's tyrannies" So everything a Klingon has ever done is "evil" in this point in an over simplified Federation mindset. Being this decietful archtype, I'm not suprised he could change his voice, as it exudes treachery. I'm suprised he didn't have more "powers" but maybe some of the worse things attributed to him were dismissed as legendary, but they belived in his ability to mimic.
__________________
"A man either lives life as it happens to him, meets it head-on, and licks it. Or he turns his back on it and starts to wither away."
Marsden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2014, 06:36 PM   #28
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

Regarding this, if the mimic act was a known or assumed ability of Kahless, that is, known to Kirk and Spock, our heroes should arguably have been wary of it. But perhaps the opponents weren't drawn from the minds of Kirk or Spock? Perhaps Kirk contributed Lincoln, and Spock contributed Surak, but it was Scotty who contributed Kahless and all the misconceptions regarding him...

If, OTOH, Kahless was just a random collection of evil characteristics drawn from the mind of Kirk, then the Excalbians might have given him the ability for which, say, Li Quan was so infamous for, and Genghis Khan the ability that had made Jack the Ripper notorious. That would certainly keep our heroes from being prepared for the correct set of threats and dangers!

I'm still puzzled by the "You should stick to Star Trek" thing...?

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2014, 07:06 PM   #29
patweb
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Location: California
Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

The fact that Kahless could mimick a voice he only heard a couple of times points to the likelihood that this power was given to him partly to amuse the Excalbians.
patweb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2014, 08:38 PM   #30
albion432
Lieutenant
 
Location: New Orleans, LA
Re: Kahless Mimicking Voices?

Is there any insight to be gained by looking at what Kahless's voice mimicking achieved? It only seemed to be successful in rooting out another Excalbian, as someone pointed out, neither Spock nor Kirk were tricked by the ruse.

Something else I always wonder, did the Excalbian's who were "killed" really die, or was it part of the act, and once they returned to their normal state were still alive. Any thoughts on that?
albion432 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:21 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.