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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 6 2014, 03:43 AM   #61
Christopher
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
That'd be a tricky one to pull off onscreen, given that the original lacked that oh-so-convenient character identification tool known as a name....
The movies have borrowed the character names Hikaru (Sulu), Nyota (Uhura), and George and Winona (Kirk) from the novels. They could borrow the novels' name Charvanek for the Commander too.
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Old May 6 2014, 08:14 AM   #62
HIjol
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
That said there's nothing in JJtrek I consider worth salvaging and perpetuating.
Well, be fair: they can save the hat. But the lens flares have got to go.





The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
I would pay good money to see Leonard Nimoy in that....

You're in luck. Leonard ran into a financial rough patch and agreed to model the hat for a modest fee:



Not really.

But this happened:

...HIjol...speechless...there's a First...
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Old May 6 2014, 10:31 AM   #63
TheLongEarth
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
TheLongEarth wrote: View Post
And why is his view that nothing is worth taking from Jar Jar's Trek films not a valid speculation?
Jar Jar Trek. Wow, what an original joke. I can't believe that the Abrams films have been out now for over five years and this is the very first time I've ever heard this. Thanks cadet, for making me laugh so damn hard at such originality. A career in stand up is just waiting for you.
If you are going to attempt sarcasm, at least get my initial statement right. It was Jar Jar's Trek, not Jar Jar Trek. It's also telling that rather than refute my statement that Warped9's predictions are as valid as any one else's, you resort to attempting to belittle me.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Purists have been denouncing the new incarnations of Trek for decades, but their rejection has never stuck, except arguably for TAS. In 1982, there were fans screaming that TWOK was a terrible travesty that got Trek totally wrong. In 1987, fans were screaming that about TNG. And so on. History shows that they do not have a good track record for predicting how the audience as a whole will respond do novelty.
Until this becomes history however, it does not make Warped9 or anyone else's speculation any less valid than your own.
And this has little to do with being a "purist". Had the last two films added anything i considered valuable to the mythos, i'd be all for keeping those additions in any future incarnation. But they haven't. In some cases they have detracted from the characters.

The only real praise i have for the last two films is the casting and musical compositions. Both were excellently done. But since this is speculation about a new incarnation, neither of those is likely to remain.
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Old May 6 2014, 02:22 PM   #64
Nerys Myk
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

TheLongEarth wrote: View Post
Had the last two films added anything i considered valuable to the mythos, i'd be all for keeping those additions in any future incarnation. But they haven't. In some cases they have detracted from the characters.
One word: Uhura. She's now something TOS never has, a lead female character.
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Old May 6 2014, 02:29 PM   #65
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
TheLongEarth wrote: View Post
Had the last two films added anything i considered valuable to the mythos, i'd be all for keeping those additions in any future incarnation. But they haven't. In some cases they have detracted from the characters.
One word: Uhura. She's now something TOS never has, a lead female character.
Yep.
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Old May 6 2014, 02:35 PM   #66
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
That said there's nothing in JJtrek I consider worth salvaging and perpetuating.
Well, be fair: they can save the hat. But the lens flares have got to go.





The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
I would pay good money to see Leonard Nimoy in that....

You're in luck. Leonard ran into a financial rough patch and agreed to model the hat for a modest fee:



Not really.

But this happened:

Fantastic.

Pay up The Old Mixer
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Old May 6 2014, 03:29 PM   #67
Christopher
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

TheLongEarth wrote: View Post
Until this becomes history however, it does not make Warped9 or anyone else's speculation any less valid than your own.
The past five years of history tell us all we need to know. The two Abrams films are just about the most financially successful Trek films in history, not to mention among the most critically well-regarded. Their detractors like to pretend that the films were flops, but that's completely counterfactual. Hard evidence, not "speculation," shows clearly that these films are hits, more popular than any incarnation of Star Trek has been since the heyday of TNG two decades ago. There can be legitimate criticisms raised of their content and quality, but there is no denying their popularity with the mass audience. At this point it makes no sense to pretend they'll somehow be forgotten.


And this has little to do with being a "purist". Had the last two films added anything i considered valuable to the mythos, i'd be all for keeping those additions in any future incarnation. But they haven't. In some cases they have detracted from the characters.
That's your opinion. Look at the matter objectively, look beyond your own mind and listen to what other people have to say, and it should be clear from this thread alone that there are a lot of people who disagree with that opinion. Several of us have already given examples of things from the films that we believe could or should have a lasting impact, and ways in which the films have added to the characters.

You don't have to like something in order to admit that it will have an impact on the world. There's a ton of stuff about The Wrath of Khan that I hate, but I can't deny that a lot of other people loved it and were heavily influenced by it. There was a lot about TWOK that, in my opinion, detracted from the franchise and the characters, but my opinion alone did not shape reality. Others had different priorities, and what I saw as negatives, they saw as positives.

So when talking about how the public as a whole will react to a thing, we have to look beyond our personal reactions and observe how others are reacting. And the fact is, outside the insular echo chambers of the Internet, the Abrams films are popular and well-regarded.
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Old May 6 2014, 04:00 PM   #68
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Lance wrote: View Post
Firstly, I'd like to say I'm really surprised (and delighted) to see an American who knows about 'Robin of Sherwood', and how influential it was to the Robin Hood mythology and all subsequent incarnations of such on film and television. 1980s mullets aside, of course.
My sister and I loved Robin of Sherwood! Here in the States it was broadcast on the cable movie channel Showtime. I was in my early teens when it was being produced and was really captured by the series as a whole; the music, the writing, the mysticism, the excellent cinematography, the casting. The series was outstanding in every respect. That's perhaps why it has left a lasting mark on the Robin Hood legend. Even if the introduction of the saracen character is the only lasting mark the series has had on the Robin Hood legend that is still pretty impressive!

On a personal note, the event that occurs at the end of RoS's second season (I won't mention any spoilers since Christopher hasn't watched it yet, but if you know the series then you know what I'm referring to) left me depressed for months afterwards. I had never seen a series go to such a dark place before, and it was a pretty devastating and traumatic experience to go through as a young teen.

As for the topic of this thread, I think the only change the new movies have made that I think is worthy of holding over to future iterations of ST is Uhura's new prominence and importance. Pike being Kirk's mentor makes sense too, since a mentor is, in effect, meant to be an older version of the hero. That is literally what Pike is, an older version of Kirk, so I like it. It never quite rang true for me that Kirk had only met Pike once prior to TOS, when Pike handed the keys of the Enterprise over to him. What made even less sense was that the two men were about the same age according to Mendez. That would mean Pike would have been pretty damn young when he took command of the Enterprise! But beyond that, I can't see anything in these new movies worth holding on to!
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Old May 6 2014, 04:18 PM   #69
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

^Oh, I know what happened at the end of the second season of Robin of Sherwood. I read about the series in Starlog ages ago, and they had an episode guide to the whole series as well as interviews with many of its cast members.

What's interesting is that the 2006 BBC Robin Hood series did essentially the same thing at the end of its third season, but was cancelled before it could follow through.


Okay, there seems to be a relative consensus that the elaborations on Pike's and Uhura's characters are worth keeping. So there's that, at least. And as I've said, the now-canonized given names for Kirk's parents are probably here to stay, and their Starfleet backstory is likely to be kept as well. As with a lot of this stuff, these are likely to be kept around simply because they're filling voids that prior canon never bothered to fill.

Now, I said before that I'd like it if they kept the new Romulan makeup design, but as I've been saying, we mustn't mistake our personal wishes for what's likely to happen. Different makeup designers tend to bring their own vision to Trek alien designs, keeping the basics but adding distinct variations, so there's no telling what a future makeup designer might decide to do with the Romulans.

Now, people who discover Star Trek through these movies and grow up watching them might very well come to think of Scotty as a comedy character with Keenser as his sidekick, so that might potentially be carried forward; except that Keenser is just a bit player and there's little more to him than short jokes, so that's something that might not leave enough of a mark to be carried forward. Then again, as I've mentioned, reboots often happen in reaction to a prior work rather than emulation of it. I mean, look at how Uhura's been fleshed out in contrast to her lack of development before. Look at how Paul Dini took the obscure, Z-list Batman villain Mr. Freeze and turned him into one of the most powerful and unforgettable characters in the rogue's gallery. Maybe some future creator will look back in frustration at how Keenser's potential as a character was wasted and reinvent him as a rich, multifaceted character. There's no telling what could happen in a reboot.
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Old May 6 2014, 04:40 PM   #70
Dukhat
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

TheLongEarth wrote: View Post
If you are going to attempt sarcasm, at least get my initial statement right. It was Jar Jar's Trek, not Jar Jar Trek. It's also telling that rather than refute my statement that Warped9's predictions are as valid as any one else's, you resort to attempting to belittle me.
There's nothing telling about it. Warped9 can think whatever he wants. I was pointing out the unoriginality and stupidity of your joke. Nothing personal.

Next time, if you want to make fun of Abrams, at least make a joke that hasn't been said a million times already.
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Old May 6 2014, 05:08 PM   #71
albion432
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Christopher wrote: View Post
And as I've said, the now-canonized given names for Kirk's parents are probably here to stay, and their Starfleet backstory is likely to be kept as well. As with a lot of this stuff, these are likely to be kept around simply because they're filling voids that prior canon never bothered to fill.
Agreed. No reason to not keep the names and backstories which have been been established for Kirk's parents. In fact, any blanks these movies fill in for the characters (as long as they're not just downright dumb) might as well be carried over.


Christopher wrote: View Post
Now, people who discover Star Trek through these movies and grow up watching them might very well come to think of Scotty as a comedy character with Keenser as his sidekick, so that might potentially be carried forward . . . Maybe some future creator will look back in frustration at how Keenser's potential as a character was wasted and reinvent him as a rich, multifaceted character.
You may be right, but I sure hope not! That character was the last thing we needed in a Star Trek movie, and I cannot stand the new Scotty, it's one of the lowest points of the new films in my opinion.

Only time will tell.
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Old May 6 2014, 05:11 PM   #72
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

^Again, what any of us may prefer as individuals is a totally different topic from what future creators who aren't us might decide to do.
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Old May 6 2014, 05:39 PM   #73
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Again, what any of us may prefer as individuals is a totally different topic from what future creators who aren't us might decide to do.
Agreed. Again, time will tell. Looking forward to seeing just what it does tell!
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Old May 6 2014, 06:18 PM   #74
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Just as long as Starbuck stays a woman . . . .
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Old May 7 2014, 01:24 AM   #75
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
TheLongEarth wrote: View Post
Had the last two films added anything i considered valuable to the mythos, i'd be all for keeping those additions in any future incarnation. But they haven't. In some cases they have detracted from the characters.
One word: Uhura. She's now something TOS never has, a lead female character.
Maybe. It seems like all she is is moody love interest of Spock. Not a full character yet imho. (Though more than TOS-Uhura was.) Neither is McCoy, really, either: just comic-relief De Kelley impression.

(A very good one, I might add, and one of the things I like about nu-Trek. I like nu-Scotty too. I like that he quit. I could see old Scotty doing that too.)
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