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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 5 2014, 06:45 PM   #46
Warped9
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

A lot of this stuff is discussed in the Future of Trek forum.

I know if I were rebooting TOS there are quite a few things I'd keep albeit updated, but there are also some things I'd pass over. I probably might borrow some ideas from the films or other series if I felt it worked for a TOS reboot.

That said there's nothing in JJtrek I consider worth salvaging and perpetuating.
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Old May 5 2014, 06:47 PM   #47
Greg Cox
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Warped9 wrote: View Post

That said there's nothing in JJtrek I consider worth salvaging and perpetuating.
Not even Pike as Kirk's mentor? Or Spock/Uhura?
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Old May 5 2014, 06:58 PM   #48
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

The Pike/Kirk relationship in nuTrek is something that will almost certainly remain part of the canon from here on out. It's too attractive dramatically for writers to want to abandon.

Probably the same is true for the details of Kirk's birth - there really was nothing much established prior to nuTrek, anyway, except for one reference in the fourth ST movie to Kirk being "from Iowa" (not necessarily born in Iowa).
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Old May 5 2014, 07:22 PM   #49
Christopher
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Similarly, the idea that Dracula disintegrates in the sunlight seems to come from the original 1922 silent version of Nosferatu, not the novel.
Heck, the idea of Dracula as a romantic figure is more from the movies too, isn't it? In the book, he's more of a sexual predator, with vampirism as a metaphor for sex.


Warped9 wrote: View Post
That said there's nothing in JJtrek I consider worth salvaging and perpetuating.
But we're not talking about you, are we? We're talking about future generations of filmmakers and TV producers, the people who aren't us. And that will eventually include people who grew up on the Abrams films, who discovered Trek through them, or who just plain liked them. After all, the enormous box-office success and high critical ratings of the Abrams films make it pretty clear that their supporters outnumber their detractors. There's no doubt that the films will have an influence on future audiences and creators, no matter what the older generation thinks of them.

So since we're talking about future generations, this is a subject that calls for stepping outside our subjective points of view and trying to imagine what other people would be influenced by.


Dennis wrote: View Post
The Pike/Kirk relationship in nuTrek is something that will almost certainly remain part of the canon from here on out. It's too attractive dramatically for writers to want to abandon.
I agree. It moves Pike to a more important role in the mythos than just that mopey guy who ends up in the beep-beep chair.


Probably the same is true for the details of Kirk's birth - there really was nothing much established prior to nuTrek, anyway, except for one reference in the fourth ST movie to Kirk being "from Iowa" (not necessarily born in Iowa).
Not all the details -- not the time-travel stuff that was introduced as an excuse to tie the new continuity to the old one, which is a bit too specific. And I don't see Nero being a character that later reinventors will feel a great need to revisit. But George Kirk of the Kelvin sacrificing himself to save his wife and newborn son? That's something that might be kept. Or at least the names and Starfleet backstories of the characters.
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Old May 5 2014, 07:59 PM   #50
Lance
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Actually I've recently been listening to the Superman radio series on the Internet Archive, and the original version of Superman's origin story was totally bizarre. Episode 1 tells the story of Jor-L (as his name was originally spelled) and the death of Krypton just as you'd expect, ending with the baby Kal-L being launched in a rocket from the dying planet -- but then episode 2 opens with an adult Superman arriving in that selfsame rocket in his full costume, somehow with a full knowledge of 1940s American English. He leaves the rocket, flies around for a bit, then rescues a random professor and his son on a runaway bus. When they ask what they can do to repay him, he asks where a guy can go to learn about crises as soon as possible, and the professor suggests getting a job at a newspaper -- along with adopting Earth clothes and a secret identity. The boy suggests the name "Clark Kent" on the spur of the moment. And that's his entire origin. It's odd that they went that route, given that the comics had already established in 1939 that he'd arrived as an infant and been raised by adoptive parents.

A couple of years later, in 1942, the series went on hiatus for 6 months and then returned in a slightly new format, and they took the opportunity to reboot the origin. The second episode of that series is titled "Eben Kent Dies in Fire; Clark Goes to Metropolis." Unfortunately, that episode, like many episodes of the restarted series, has been lost, but it's evident from the title that it used the same version of the origin story given in the 1942 novel The Adventures of Superman by George Lowther, who was the director of the radio series (an origin also used in the Kirk Alyn serials and George Reeves TV series). Lowther's novel also introduced the spelling Jor-El for Superman's birth father.

And yes, the radio series did introduce kryptonite, though there was an earlier unpublished comics story called "The K-Metal from Krypton" that may have been an inspiration.
It's very interesting watching/listening to this kind of thing in hindsight isn't it? Easy to pick out the early-instalment-weirdness. I remember now where my recollection of Superman's origin including growing up in an orphanage came from: the Fleischer cartoon shorts. For some reason they bypassed Ma and Pa Kent entirely (although to be fair Superman's origin in those was never 'made flesh' as an actual story in itself, but simply told in part of a recap at the start of each cartoon, though it still doesn't quite explain why "Grew up in an orphanage" is any easier to condense into twenty-five seconds than "Found by two Earth people, who raised him as their own son").
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Old May 5 2014, 08:04 PM   #51
Warped9
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post

That said there's nothing in JJtrek I consider worth salvaging and perpetuating.
Not even Pike as Kirk's mentor? Or Spock/Uhura?
No and no.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
That said there's nothing in JJtrek I consider worth salvaging and perpetuating.
But we're not talking about you, are we?
Too bad, it's my opinion anyway.
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Old May 5 2014, 08:23 PM   #52
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Too bad, it's my opinion anyway.
Of course it is, but that doesn't apply to the discussion we're trying to have here. As I said, the goal here is to try to imagine other people's perspectives rather than just asserting our own. It's a speculative exercise, not a movie review.
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Old May 5 2014, 08:31 PM   #53
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
Too bad, it's my opinion anyway.
Of course it is, but that doesn't apply to the discussion we're trying to have here. As I said, the goal here is to try to imagine other people's perspectives rather than just asserting our own. It's a speculative exercise, not a movie review.
And why is his view that nothing is worth taking from Jar Jar's Trek films not a valid speculation?

There is every chance that any future production team will find the films as dire as some of us do. Why not try imagining someone else's perspective, instead of just asserting that he's not contributing?
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Old May 5 2014, 08:45 PM   #54
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Purists have been denouncing the new incarnations of Trek for decades, but their rejection has never stuck, except arguably for TAS. In 1982, there were fans screaming that TWOK was a terrible travesty that got Trek totally wrong. In 1987, fans were screaming that about TNG. And so on. History shows that they do not have a good track record for predicting how the audience as a whole will respond do novelty.
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Old May 5 2014, 08:56 PM   #55
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Long-running pop cultural institutions tend to evolve and mutate over time, shedding old bits of "lore" and accreting new bits from each new retelling. I'm sure future creators will cherry pick from every version of Trek, including the latest reboot.

On the other hand, nuTrek has yet to give us the Trek version of Harley Quinn or Jimmy Olsen--a new breakout character who will be incorporated into future versions. Maybe next movie?
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Old May 6 2014, 12:34 AM   #56
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

TheLongEarth wrote: View Post
And why is his view that nothing is worth taking from Jar Jar's Trek films not a valid speculation?
Jar Jar Trek. Wow, what an original joke. I can't believe that the Abrams films have been out now for over five years and this is the very first time I've ever heard this. Thanks cadet, for making me laugh so damn hard at such originality. A career in stand up is just waiting for you.
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Old May 6 2014, 12:58 AM   #57
Christopher
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
On the other hand, nuTrek has yet to give us the Trek version of Harley Quinn or Jimmy Olsen--a new breakout character who will be incorporated into future versions. Maybe next movie?
Good point. So far, the movies are basically just reworking existing ideas, whether from canon or from the tie-ins. Robau comes closest to being a potential breakout character, I think, but nothing's been done with him yet.
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Old May 6 2014, 01:55 AM   #58
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
I would pay good money to see Leonard Nimoy in that....

Christopher wrote: View Post
I'd hope, though, that he'd be joined by characters like [...] the "Enterprise Incident" Romulan Commander.
That'd be a tricky one to pull off onscreen, given that the original lacked that oh-so-convenient character identification tool known as a name....
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Old May 6 2014, 02:05 AM   #59
Nerys Myk
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Long-running pop cultural institutions tend to evolve and mutate over time, shedding old bits of "lore" and accreting new bits from each new retelling. I'm sure future creators will cherry pick from every version of Trek, including the latest reboot.

On the other hand, nuTrek has yet to give us the Trek version of Harley Quinn or Jimmy Olsen--a new breakout character who will be incorporated into future versions. Maybe next movie?
Star Trek is no stranger to this "mutation". The first season of TOS was constantly "mutating", so much that one might want to check for a radiation leak.
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Old May 6 2014, 03:09 AM   #60
ZapBrannigan
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Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
That said there's nothing in JJtrek I consider worth salvaging and perpetuating.
Well, be fair: they can save the hat. But the lens flares have got to go.





The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
I would pay good money to see Leonard Nimoy in that....

You're in luck. Leonard ran into a financial rough patch and agreed to model the hat for a modest fee:



Not really.

But this happened:
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