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Old May 8 2014, 07:01 AM   #31
Yminale
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Re: Stephen Hawking: A.I.'s are a bad idea

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"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C Clarke

Also an AI is not software. By its very nature, an AI is self-learning and autonomous hence why they are dangerous. To develop an AI, humanity would need to understand basic conciousness. That may not be possible which is why I think an AI is most likely to be created by accident
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Old May 8 2014, 07:06 AM   #32
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Re: Stephen Hawking: A.I.'s are a bad idea

Yminale wrote: View Post
Sigh
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C Clarke
Truly one of the most idiotic phrases in existence. Magic and technology will only indistinguishable to those too unsophisticated to see the world rationally.
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Old May 8 2014, 10:50 AM   #33
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Re: Stephen Hawking: A.I.'s are a bad idea

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Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Yminale wrote: View Post
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"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C Clarke
Truly one of the most idiotic phrases in existence. Magic and technology will only indistinguishable to those too unsophisticated to see the world rationally.
Finally! I thought I was the only one.

Rational thinking is independent from technical advancement.
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Old May 8 2014, 11:56 AM   #34
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Re: Stephen Hawking: A.I.'s are a bad idea

Yminale wrote: View Post
Also an AI is not software. By its very nature, an AI is self-learning and autonomous hence why they are dangerous. To develop an AI, humanity would need to understand basic conciousness. That may not be possible which is why I think an AI is most likely to be created by accident
That is not only a non sequitur, but is also incredibly misleading. Aside from the obvious nitpick that AI is software – even your brain is software, though being fused to hardware makes that distinction difficult and useless – it's also a warped view of what AI is and why it is that way.

First and foremost, not all AI is self-learning and autonomous. I used the word guessing for them earlier, but a lot of methods that are considered AI are pretty straight-forward and fully devised by people. And even amongst the self-learned ones, a lot offer human-understandable learning results, so at no point you have any mysticism as to how they function.

Conversely, a lot of software that has nothing to do with AI is shady too. Particularly in the old days of computers, when they were very slow and you couldn't rely on endless abstractions, and you couldn't sacrifice speed for clarity, programmers had to resort to a lot of tricks to get their software working. Some of them are very close to vodooo and defy explanation. And – using this thread to shamelessly plug my free software agenda – since a lot of that software was (and still is) secret, with a high possibility of that secret getting lost, your computer already has a lot of enigmatic programs that will always defy understanding more than an AI would. Particularly Skype. That puts the cherry on top of enigmatic.

Most importantly though, there's a reason why an AI ends up being that way. An intelligence needs to deal with the complex ambiguous relationships between the complex ambiguous concepts of the real world. It cannot be broken down and condensed into simple rules, so the knowledge about it will always resemble a very cryptic jumble. Nevertheless, the apparatus behind it is well-understood, the training methods are understood and controlled. Any results are not result of an accident, they are both predicted and understood. The only trouble is that the understanding is somewhat limited due to the vast magnitude of interlinked information, but not because it is black magic.


OK, sorry for being a free software shill, but I couldn't resist.
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Old May 8 2014, 08:20 PM   #35
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Re: Stephen Hawking: A.I.'s are a bad idea

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Finally! I thought I was the only one.
You're definitely not.

Actually, I've been reading a lot of anthropology papers lately, particularly the ones relating to the study of isolated indigenous tribes without a lot of encounters with westerners. They didn't have the first idea how it worked, but they caught on pretty quickly that "Push this button, stuff happens... push that button, other stuff happens..."

Even the famous "Cargo Cult" turned out to be less of the natives believing the airplanes were gods (as is popularly claimed) and more of the native people simply not understanding that airplanes traveled with a set destination and didn't simply land at the nearest convenient runway (also, not understanding how runways worked). They very clearly understood that the people flying those planes were merchants or traders who had valuable goods to trade, and building their fake runaways was an attempt to entice those pilots to land and trade with them.

As for AI: you don't need to understand exactly how it works to grasp the basic technological principle, even if that principle is as simple as "I tell you something, you do stuff, I tell you something else you do other stuff." Both humans and AI can figure that out pretty well. From that point, all we need to understand is that AIs are created with a goal in mind, and therefore (at least in the broader context of the world) they will never cease to be predictable. Think "R2D2," not "Lore."
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Old May 8 2014, 09:59 PM   #36
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Re: Stephen Hawking: A.I.'s are a bad idea

I never understood why anyone would assume an A.I. (if we could create one and it was as aware as we are) would be aggressive. We're aggressive, but we're animals that have millions of years of evolution where he had to fight for resources against other animals, nature and each other. An A.I. just needs someone to pay the electric bill. It doesn't need to eat, drink or worry about death. I think we just fear that anything we create would be exactly like us, just smarter and better, and deep down we know how we act when confronted by something weaker than us.

TL;DR I for one welcome our new A.I. Overlords, I mean Protectors.
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Old May 8 2014, 10:21 PM   #37
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Re: Stephen Hawking: A.I.'s are a bad idea

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
I never understood why anyone would assume an A.I. (if we could create one and it was as aware as we are) would be aggressive. We're aggressive, but we're animals that have millions of years of evolution where he had to fight for resources against other animals, nature and each other. An A.I. just needs someone to pay the electric bill. It doesn't need to eat, drink or worry about death. I think we just fear that anything we create would be exactly like us, just smarter and better, and deep down we know how we act when confronted by something weaker than us.

TL;DR I for one welcome our new A.I. Overlords, I mean Protectors.
That's the thing. A.I. wouldn't have any sort of instincts unless they are programmed with that.

The Terminator Skynet scenario: Skynet felt attacked by humans and fought back. But why would it do that? There's no survival instinct. It probably couldn't care less. Self awareness and self preservation are not neccessarrilly connected.
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Old May 8 2014, 11:01 PM   #38
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Re: Stephen Hawking: A.I.'s are a bad idea

Someone really dropped the ball when they programmed a defense A.I. to be dangerously paranoid.
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Old May 9 2014, 07:16 AM   #39
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Re: Stephen Hawking: A.I.'s are a bad idea

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Yminale wrote: View Post
Sigh
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C Clarke
Truly one of the most idiotic phrases in existence. Magic and technology will only indistinguishable to those too unsophisticated to see the world rationally.
No it would be indistingishable to ANYBODY, because no one has perfect understanding. Do you know how the computer you are using works and I don't mean the grade school understanding most people have. I've assembled PC's for years and my understanding is about 1% of all the science it represents. Like most people you turn on the computer and you EXPECT it to work and that was Clarke's point
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Old May 9 2014, 07:25 AM   #40
Gov Kodos
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Re: Stephen Hawking: A.I.'s are a bad idea

Yminale wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Yminale wrote: View Post
Sigh
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C Clarke
Truly one of the most idiotic phrases in existence. Magic and technology will only indistinguishable to those too unsophisticated to see the world rationally.
No it would be indistingishable to ANYBODY, because no one has perfect understanding. Do you know how the computer you are using works and I don't mean the grade school understanding most people have. I've assembled PC's for years and my understanding is about 1% of all the science it represents. Like most people you turn on the computer and you EXPECT it to work and that was Clarke's point
Oh, you have a full dossier on my knowledge and education. Why would anyone dare gainsay such omniscience. Indistinguishable to anybody? What is magic?
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Old May 9 2014, 07:28 AM   #41
Yminale
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Re: Stephen Hawking: A.I.'s are a bad idea

YellowSubmarine wrote: View Post
Yminale wrote: View Post
Also an AI is not software. By its very nature, an AI is self-learning and autonomous hence why they are dangerous. To develop an AI, humanity would need to understand basic conciousness. That may not be possible which is why I think an AI is most likely to be created by accident
That is not only a non sequitur, but is also incredibly misleading. Aside from the obvious nitpick that AI is software – even your brain is software, though being fused to hardware makes that distinction difficult and useless – it's also a warped view of what AI is and why it is that way.
Software implies an external programer. No one programs your brain, you learn.

First and foremost, not all AI is self-learning and autonomous.
You are confusing the term PROGRAM with a AI. I see this alot with video gamers. No the enemy does not have an AI, it has a set of instructions aka a program.
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Old May 9 2014, 07:40 AM   #42
Yminale
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Re: Stephen Hawking: A.I.'s are a bad idea

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Oh, you have a full dossier on my knowledge and education. Why would anyone dare gainsay such omniscience. Indistinguishable to anybody? What is magic?
Even if you had a Phd in computer science and electrical engineering, you would still EXPECT your computer to turn on. Clarke's point was that our experience with technology is disconnected with our understanding of it (this is also the major flaw of the Turning test).

And magic is the belief that there is no causality.
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Old May 9 2014, 07:44 AM   #43
Gov Kodos
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Re: Stephen Hawking: A.I.'s are a bad idea

Yminale wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Oh, you have a full dossier on my knowledge and education. Why would anyone dare gainsay such omniscience. Indistinguishable to anybody? What is magic?
Even if you had a Phd in computer science and electrical engineering, you would still EXPECT your computer to turn on. Clarke's point was that our experience with technology is disconnected with our understanding of it (this is also the major flaw of the Turning test).
So, how did you find out what I studied and to what degree?

Is expectation magic?

So, what one can not explain in detail must be magic?

Yminale wrote: View Post
And magic is the belief that there is no causality.
So, Sacrificing to Demeter to get the crops to come in well next season isn't a cause and effect process?
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Old May 9 2014, 08:06 AM   #44
Yminale
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Re: Stephen Hawking: A.I.'s are a bad idea

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post

So, how did you find out what I studied and to what degree?
Your education is irrelavent because it's about your perception

So, what one can not explain in detail must be magic?
Clarke's point is that it will FEEL like magic. I think you are overthinking his quote. He never implied that technology should be treated like magic. Just the opposite and that was Hawking's point as well.

So, Sacrificing to Demeter to get the crops to come in well next season isn't a cause and effect process?
There is always a breakdown in causality when it comes to superstitions. Why virgins? What makes sex dirty? Why does Demeter need sacrifices? How does she change the season? What evidence is there that she exists? So on etc. In the end it requires some form of faith.
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Old May 9 2014, 08:19 AM   #45
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Re: Stephen Hawking: A.I.'s are a bad idea

Yminale wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post

So, how did you find out what I studied and to what degree?
Your education is irrelavent because it's about your perception
Yet, you keep making claim to know it.

Yminale wrote: View Post
So, what one can not explain in detail must be magic?
Clarke's point is that it will FEEL like magic. I think you are overthinking his quote. He never implied that technology should be treated like magic. Just the opposite and that was Hawking's point as well.
So, you know Clarke's mind as well as mine, truly an astonishing intellect. Feel. what does feel have to do with an empirical endeavor? You certainly seem to think that unless one can explain something to 100% detail then they must take that whatever as magic, something working without causality. That being your definition of the term. Without causality, did the computer make me turn it on?

Yminale wrote: View Post
So, Sacrificing to Demeter to get the crops to come in well next season isn't a cause and effect process?
There is always a breakdown in causality when it comes to superstitions. Why virgins? What makes sex dirty? Why does Demeter need sacrifices? How does she change the season? What evidence is there that she exists? So on etc. In the end it requires some form of faith.
There's no breakdown in causality. They may not understand why there is winter and summer as a result of axial tilt, but they sacrifice the virgin and the sun comes back is one thing following the other. They may not appreciate the difference between correlation and causation with their magical system, but they are well aware causality exists.
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