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Old April 28 2014, 11:00 PM   #16
2takesfrakes
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Re: I just had a revelation

Melakon wrote: View Post
But Voyager's "New Zealand Penal Colony" didn't have any hobbit shires or anything, because their version was filmed in California.
>>SNORT!<<

It's such a shame that simply "rehabilitating" criminals won't ever become the status quo. Victims have families who just aren't going to be contented with a killer, or rapist being "treated" and released, like he's the one who's been wronged, somehow. But, presumably, there is some way of "detecting" kids that might be susceptible to stumbling off of the straight and narrow path, in STAR TREK ... and this would then be corrected with - or without - parental consent. A fictitious world such as this doesn't stand up to alot of scrutiny, close up. It's best to just have the captain say things like, "... we don't use money, in the 24th Century," then have them called to the bridge right away, before they stick their foot in their mouth ...
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Old April 29 2014, 12:37 AM   #17
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Re: I just had a revelation

I'm thinking that although the natives won't turn down any tourists on Risa, that customs won't let in any ugos.
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Old April 29 2014, 05:50 PM   #18
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Re: I just had a revelation

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Tonight I was having real life conversation about the Borg and how in First Contact Starfleet still don't know a lot about the Borg compared to say, the Romulans, and that is why Picard was sent to the outer rim and not allowed in the fight because of this unknown quantity. And I was thinking about how so many people are devoted to researching the Borg and trying to understand them, how they tick and their weaknesses and how admirable this is. And then it occurred to me how much more EFFORT would be happening in such an area in the future, and in all and every area of research and science because no one has any physical needs to worry about. You don't worry about grant money, or paying the bills, or paying for the kids you don't live with or saving enough for a house or a car or retirement. Everything is absolutely taken care of and you get up every morning and work for your deep and abiding interest in the topic.

Your work is unconnected to eating and living and life security.

Probably there are a myriad of jobs that get you everything you want, you just sign up for one of them and you have travel credit, house credit, retirement credit. And it doesn't matter what job it is so if you are Mr. Science guy you get to play all day in science and if you are Mr. Lazy guy you find the least tasking thing you can get away with and do that. And the only people who get nothing are ones who opt out of the system completely and earth makes it so difficult for them they end up on some crap world working their butt off for a hamburger and this really puts a damper on opting out.

Anyway my revelation was that more would get done, people would be more excited about working to better the world if that work wasn't tied to their own financial and personal security. I don't know if this is true though.
Just think about what you would do if you won millions in the lottery. The freedom you get by such a win is enormous.

The thing is, in OUR society it would mean chaos, because we are trained and educated to work to live, and sometimes live to work. If you took the pressure away from people all of a sudden, of course at first the majority of them would turn into lazy couch potatoes. Money is right now the greatest element of ambition in our society.

But in Star Trek, humans have slowly developed to the point were they work for their own enjoyment, because the switch to a no money society didn't come out of the blue. They don't need money as motivation, and they don't need the pressure of a deadline to finish their work.


When you look at extremely rich people, most of them donate their money to charity (so, as Picard would say, they are trying "to better themselves and the rest of humanity"), and I give them the benefit of the doubt that they do it because they WANT to do it, and not because their PR manager told them to.
A decent lottery win for me would mean having a house again, with an actual yard, trees, and a small, thriving ecosystem that includes birds and squirrels. I'd set up a safe outdoor enclosure so the cats could go outside. And I'd adopt another cat or two; it's already past the time when I would normally have done so, since I try not to have more than a 3-year age gap between my feline children.

Then again... lottery win, plus health, plus a cat sitter would mean the chance to travel a bit. I wouldn't go gallivanting off to Europe for a month, but a weekend in Calgary or a short trip to some favorite places in BC would be nice.

But permanent goofing off is not my cup of tea (or any other beverage). Even when I was in school (around the late junior high/early high school years), a month's worth of summer holidays was enough for me. There was one summer that I missed school to the point that I was deliberately getting up at 6 a.m. to watch University of the Air, plus whatever educational programming was on ACCESS. It ended up paying off later, since I was able to opt out of some of the course work that included watching some of the documentaries I'd already seen over the summer.

teacake wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Just think about what you would do if you won millions in the lottery. The freedom you get by such a win is enormous.

The thing is, in OUR society it would mean chaos, because we are trained and educated to work to live, and sometimes live to work. If you took the pressure away from people all of a sudden, of course at first the majority of them would turn into lazy couch potatoes. Money is right now the greatest element of ambition in our society.

But in Star Trek, humans have slowly developed to the point were they work for their own enjoyment, because the switch to a no money society didn't come out of the blue. They don't need money as motivation, and they don't need the pressure of a deadline to finish their work.

When you look at extremely rich people, most of them donate their money to charity (so, as Picard would say, they are trying "to better themselves and the rest of humanity"), and I give them the benefit of the doubt that they do it because they WANT to do it, and not because their PR manager told them to.
Yes it's a human at the end of a social evolution we see, not how we would end up if we magically woke up like this today. I for one would not get off the beach for a decade.

I wish we had seen the rebellious element on earth, the outliers that were still on that planet. Does anyone pay you to take the piss? I bet all art is govco approved, you don't get to live the evolved secure life if you manage to be outside of what the officials think is worthy of it.
Much of the chaos of large lottery wins comes from the legal and tax issues that surround it - how do you invest it, how to you prevent as much as possible from going to taxes (as far as I know lottery winnings are tax-free in Canada, but the interest on whatever portion is invested/banked is taxable), who or what do you leave it to in your will, etc.?

teacake wrote: View Post
Because everything works better in the future, prison rehabilitates you, mental health issues are whizzed away by magic medicine.
That was in TOS. Evidently the concept of "rehabilitation" changed during the century between TOS and Voyager, since there are lots of references to various kinds of prisons throughout the spinoff series.

Melakon wrote: View Post
But Voyager's "New Zealand Penal Colony" didn't have any hobbit shires or anything, because their version was filmed in California.
I never saw those movies, so I tend to think Xena/Hercules when someone mentions fantasy movies/TV shows made in New Zealand. Could be a fun crossover fanfic idea here...

Yanks wrote: View Post
teacake: "Your work is unconnected to eating and living and life security."

I've always said that the invention of the replicator is one of the main contributors to Earth "figuring it all out" in the Star Trek universe.
But where is the line drawn at allowing ordinary citizens to replicate harmful substances/stuff? I know someone who is deathly allergic to garlic, but gets higher than a kite on cinnamon. And in spite of Tasha's speech to Wesley about drugs, it's difficult to believe that NOBODY on Earth has a drug habit or other harmful addiction of some sort.

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
A fictitious world such as this doesn't stand up to alot of scrutiny, close up. It's best to just have the captain say things like, "... we don't use money, in the 24th Century," then have them called to the bridge right away, before they stick their foot in their mouth ...
But Picard never actually said that. It was Kirk who said they don't use money, but he really meant they don't use cash (since it's obvious that there are financial transactions that take place in both centuries).
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Old April 29 2014, 06:45 PM   #19
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Re: I just had a revelation

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Much of the chaos of large lottery wins comes from the legal and tax issues that surround it - how do you invest it, how to you prevent as much as possible from going to taxes (as far as I know lottery winnings are tax-free in Canada, but the interest on whatever portion is invested/banked is taxable), who or what do you leave it to in your will, etc.?
That is where the greed comes in.
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Old April 29 2014, 10:40 PM   #20
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Re: I just had a revelation

Alternate (or future) thread title: The Revelations of Ste. teacake the Divine.
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Old April 30 2014, 02:35 AM   #21
Yanks
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Re: I just had a revelation

Timewalker: But where is the line drawn at allowing ordinary citizens to replicate harmful substances/stuff? I know someone who is deathly allergic to garlic, but gets higher than a kite on cinnamon. And in spite of Tasha's speech to Wesley about drugs, it's difficult to believe that NOBODY on Earth has a drug habit or other harmful addiction of some sort.

True. But one could make the argument one of the main contributors to folks getting on drugs is economics. That kind of goes by the wayside with replicators.

I just don't think Earth achieves the utopian goal with out that technology.

Didn't they have technology built in to the replicators that made it so that certain stuff couldn't be replicated?

Money (I think we learned that in TNG) etc...
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Old April 30 2014, 03:21 AM   #22
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Re: I just had a revelation

Commander Troi in season 3, did not have the security clearance to replicate REAL chocolate, no matter how desperate she got.

TROI: Computer, dispatches.
COMPUTER: A research enquiry from the Manitoba Journal of Interplanetary Psychology and three communiqués from your mother.
TROI: Transfer the letters from my mother to the viewscreen. And, computer, I would like a real chocolate sundae.
COMPUTER: Define real in context, please.
TROI: Real. Not one of your perfectly synthesised, ingeniously enhanced imitations. I would like real chocolate ice cream, real whipped cream
COMPUTER: This unit is programmed to provide sources of acceptable nutritional value. Your request does not fall within current guidelines. Please indicate whether you wish to override the specified programme?
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Old April 30 2014, 03:29 AM   #23
Lance
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Re: I just had a revelation

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
I had a Revelation today.

I read that in the novel that Riker and Dee had a baby.

"Natasha"

I'm struggling to identify any deep personal connection between Dee and Yar.

It's 20 years later, half the Federation fell in the Dominion war, and 900 billion died in the last Borg assault... But 20 years ago there was this lady with big shoulders and a Sandy Duncan haircut who they just must name their first child after... (Okay Dee had a space baby in season two, but that barely counts.) So then I wondered if Tasha didn't have a relationship with Dee strong enough to earn her naming rights, what about Will? Which is when it dawned on me, that XO and the Secruity Chief must have been at it hot and fast through out most of 2364.

And that's my disgusting revelation for today.
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Old April 30 2014, 03:34 AM   #24
Timewalker
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Re: I just had a revelation

Yanks wrote: View Post
Timewalker: But where is the line drawn at allowing ordinary citizens to replicate harmful substances/stuff? I know someone who is deathly allergic to garlic, but gets higher than a kite on cinnamon. And in spite of Tasha's speech to Wesley about drugs, it's difficult to believe that NOBODY on Earth has a drug habit or other harmful addiction of some sort.

True. But one could make the argument one of the main contributors to folks getting on drugs is economics. That kind of goes by the wayside with replicators.
Yeah, 'cause there are no rich people with drug habits.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Commander Troi in season 3, did not have the security clearance to replicate REAL chocolate, no matter how desperate she got.

TROI: Computer, dispatches.
COMPUTER: A research enquiry from the Manitoba Journal of Interplanetary Psychology and three communiqués from your mother.
TROI: Transfer the letters from my mother to the viewscreen. And, computer, I would like a real chocolate sundae.
COMPUTER: Define real in context, please.
TROI: Real. Not one of your perfectly synthesised, ingeniously enhanced imitations. I would like real chocolate ice cream, real whipped cream
COMPUTER: This unit is programmed to provide sources of acceptable nutritional value. Your request does not fall within current guidelines. Please indicate whether you wish to override the specified programme?
That doesn't actually state she doesn't have the clearance. The computer offers her the choice of overriding the program, so she must have the authority to do that if she wants. Of course, that would probably result in a negative note in her medical records.

I wonder if someone could get kicked out of Starfleet for eating too much chocolate? (even if it was the healthy kind)
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Old April 30 2014, 03:51 AM   #25
Lance
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Re: I just had a revelation

teacake wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Just think about what you would do if you won millions in the lottery. The freedom you get by such a win is enormous.

The thing is, in OUR society it would mean chaos, because we are trained and educated to work to live, and sometimes live to work. If you took the pressure away from people all of a sudden, of course at first the majority of them would turn into lazy couch potatoes. Money is right now the greatest element of ambition in our society.

But in Star Trek, humans have slowly developed to the point were they work for their own enjoyment, because the switch to a no money society didn't come out of the blue. They don't need money as motivation, and they don't need the pressure of a deadline to finish their work.


When you look at extremely rich people, most of them donate their money to charity (so, as Picard would say, they are trying "to better themselves and the rest of humanity"), and I give them the benefit of the doubt that they do it because they WANT to do it, and not because their PR manager told them to.


Yes it's a human at the end of a social evolution we see, not how we would end up if we magically woke up like this today. I for one would not get off the beach for a decade.

I wish we had seen the rebellious element on earth, the outliers that were still on that planet. Does anyone pay you to take the piss? I bet all art is govco approved, you don't get to live the evolved secure life if you manage to be outside of what the officials think is worthy of it.
As you've sort of touched upon, the very fact that there is even a 'New Zealand Penal Colony' at all indicates that 24th century human society still has social problems to deal with. I mean, I assume Tom Paris ain't using those showers all on his lonesome down there.

It does open up sinister overtones to the Star Trek universe, though. What if you're an outcast who refuses to "go with the flow"? What if you are driven by selfish interests, you do covet material possessions, you do everything that humanity is supposed to have "evolved" away from? What do the Feds do with you? Do they come for you in the middle of the night? Tie you down to a machine at a rehab facility, and send you out into the community again 'fully cured' and "able to make a valuable contribution to society"? (But only because, you 'want' to.)
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Old April 30 2014, 04:16 AM   #26
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Re: I just had a revelation

Cassidy Yates works as a freighter Captain in Alien space for cash.

After the Federation assimilates Bajor, she is going to move on to where she can earn and reap the benefits of earning.

Will the Bajorans be happy about the woman taking her magic baby with her?
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Old April 30 2014, 04:27 AM   #27
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Re: I just had a revelation

teacake wrote: View Post
Tonight I was having real life conversation about the Borg and how in First Contact Starfleet still don't know a lot about the Borg compared to say, the Romulans, and that is why Picard was sent to the outer rim and not allowed in the fight because of this unknown quantity. And I was thinking about how so many people are devoted to researching the Borg and trying to understand them, how they tick and their weaknesses and how admirable this is. And then it occurred to me how much more EFFORT would be happening in such an area in the future, and in all and every area of research and science because no one has any physical needs to worry about. You don't worry about grant money, or paying the bills, or paying for the kids you don't live with or saving enough for a house or a car or retirement. Everything is absolutely taken care of and you get up every morning and work for your deep and abiding interest in the topic.

Your work is unconnected to eating and living and life security.

Probably there are a myriad of jobs that get you everything you want, you just sign up for one of them and you have travel credit, house credit, retirement credit. And it doesn't matter what job it is so if you are Mr. Science guy you get to play all day in science and if you are Mr. Lazy guy you find the least tasking thing you can get away with and do that. And the only people who get nothing are ones who opt out of the system completely and earth makes it so difficult for them they end up on some crap world working their butt off for a hamburger and this really puts a damper on opting out.

Anyway my revelation was that more would get done, people would be more excited about working to better the world if that work wasn't tied to their own financial and personal security. I don't know if this is true though.
A utopia /juːˈtpiə/ is a community or society possessing highly desirable or near perfect qualities.

Teacake, your revelation is deep and wide...in some ways, the Star Trek life is reflected here in the UAE, more for Nationals than Ex-Pats, but some for both...as an American, I do not worry about mortgages or taxes or related financial instruments...my money goes home to needs there, so I really do not "see" much currency, save that which I need for food and recreation...

...the point is, I am free to work and explore and assist the education improvement effort here...much as I would be free in the Star Trek world to pursue intellectual and social improvement, individually and as a team...it is about as multicultural as it can get here, and there is also an element of time travel, in that a significant portion of the Arab population is still steeped and practiced in traditions and efforts we might deem archaic or backward...

...as to your revelation about Effort,you could not be more correct...here the Nationals want for nothing, and achieve incredible engineering, transport, social, medical and geographic wonders, and I believe it is because they are free to muse and envision and experiment and DO...

...One Ring rules them all here, in a way...do not mistake me, there are gaps and procedures we would probably not welcome...one ruler to each Emirate and One Ring to bind them (the President)...he/they say "do it" and it is done...not like the Star Trek world, to be sure, but some of the structure and freedom is similar...and yes, there is currency and renumeration here, but it is truly (mostly) a tool to create more for the society and the system...

...I believe your revelation that "...people would be more excited about working to better the world if that work wasn't tied to their own financial and personal security" ...there are security concerns in the region, to be sure, but the areas that I am comparing to your revelation are, though maybe what we would not call Utopia, safe and secure and supportive of the above prose...people ARE excited to work and better the world here in so many different ways, and I think your revelation is also a portend...
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Old April 30 2014, 05:20 AM   #28
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Re: I just had a revelation

How do the "rapegangs" from Tasha Yar's childhood reconcile with the term "utopia"?
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Old April 30 2014, 07:01 AM   #29
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Re: I just had a revelation

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
How do the "rapegangs" from Tasha Yar's childhood reconcile with the term "utopia"?
That doesn't count, since it wasn't Earth.
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Old April 30 2014, 07:24 AM   #30
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Re: I just had a revelation

Yes the rape gangs weren't earth and the ruling perfect class of the UAE isn't the foreigners from third world countries they pay to clean their houses. In the future everything gets sonically cleaned and menial labor is tricky tech work where eyes are needed so not menial at all.

It's not people that have evolved it's how controlled society is on earth that's evolved. But Picard etc.. have drunk the root beer and absolutely believe all this civilization is in their DNA rather than a product of their freedom from material needs and ability to make earth inhospitable to those that don't meet the standards required for that freedom.

Of course brainwashing a whole species into thinking they have evolved into nice people marks the culture and being nice people is now seen as the default, so would have a positive effect behavior.
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