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Old April 22 2014, 08:26 PM   #1
sonak
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Fair Haven and Janeway's "moral dilemma"

Fair Haven is a terrible episode. I've noticed in various internet reviews that there's a recurring theme that the entire "dilemma" surrounding Janeway and use of the holodeck is ridiculous. Given the 24th century's supposedly liberal attitudes on sex and sexuality and what we've seen on DS9 of holosuite use, why is it even an issue that Janeway would want to have sex with a hologram? Are we supposed to believe that it's an issue because she's a captain or because she's a female captain? Either way it's a stupid idea for the episode.
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Old April 22 2014, 08:44 PM   #2
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Fair Haven and Janeway's "moral dilemma"

As far as I can tell, the problem with the episode is the Fair Haven program itself - it's just one big Irish stereotype.

The fact that Janeway uses the program, is not in itself harmful, although the question of creating a holo-boyfriend is a bit weird when she could have just as easily pursued any member of the actual crew, up to and including Chakotay. (Starfleet has absolutely no rule against, or objection to, fraternization among the crew, as long as it's consensual and doesn't get in the way of official duties.)
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Old April 22 2014, 08:53 PM   #3
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Re: Fair Haven and Janeway's "moral dilemma"

I was terribly disappointed by "Fair Haven" and "Spirit Folk" due to the stereotypes. It's the kind of stuff Colm Meaney would have refused to do on DS9, yet TPTB evidently thought it was fine to do on Voyager.

I'm not even Irish.
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Old April 22 2014, 09:51 PM   #4
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Re: Fair Haven and Janeway's "moral dilemma"

^I'm not Irish and it cringeworthy sterotypes that make them bad episodes.
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Old April 22 2014, 09:53 PM   #5
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Re: Fair Haven and Janeway's "moral dilemma"

The holodeck is the size of a 8 to 10 tennis courts... They have to manipulating energy fields so that sound doesn't travel further than they want it to, that 30 to forty people can be in there observing conflicting perspectives without undue overlappence... Or was Janeway so quiet during sex with her light bulb that she didn't have to clear the deck?

Sooner or later, if the holodeck is flushed of all it's users continuously and regularily almost instantly after Janway leaves that pub with her fancy man, the crew is going to figure out that the Captain needs a discretionary area of 40 feet in every direction from where she is being drilled to still feel like a lady.
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Old April 22 2014, 09:57 PM   #6
sonak
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Re: Fair Haven and Janeway's "moral dilemma"

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
The holodeck is the size of a 8 to 10 tennis courts... They have to manipulating energy fields so that sound doesn't travel further than they want it to, that 30 to forty people can be in there observing conflicting perspectives without undue overlappence... Or was Janeway so quiet during sex with her light bulb that she didn't have to clear the deck?

Sooner or later, if the holodeck is flushed of all it's users continuously and regularily almost instantly after Janway leaves that pub with her fancy man, the crew is going to figure out that the Captain needs a discretionary area of 40 feet in every direction from where she is being drilled to still feel like a lady.


yeah, the holodeck rules don't make tons of sense when it comes to simulations of entire towns where you've got 30-40 real people inside what is supposed to be not that big of a place.
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Old April 22 2014, 10:04 PM   #7
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Re: Fair Haven and Janeway's "moral dilemma"

Now, I agree Janeway needed to eventually get it on with someone. They used the excuse that she "couldn't do it" with a member of her crew because everyone is her subordinate. I get it. But having Janeway go to those lengths seemed a little bit out of character.

As for moral dilemma, I am not sure if that is really what it was.

That said, being of Irish descent, the stereotypes were off the chain. And to the person who mentioned Colm Meaney, yes the leprechaun was changed to Rumpelstiltskin because of that reason.
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Old April 22 2014, 10:20 PM   #8
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Re: Fair Haven and Janeway's "moral dilemma"

Mulgrew was forcing her 20th century squeamishness onto a postpostpostpostmodern 24th century fox.

Mulgrew kept the Captain chaste for a very long time, she fought Berman hard, and this was the blow back from finally finding a romantic script that she approved of... If Mulgrew hadn't been so difficult, so afraid of being slutshamed by the 20th century audiences, the producers would have had Janeway making out with 4 or 5 different guest stars each season straight out of the gate.

Just think about some episodes that could have been solved with Janeway kissing the bad guy.

YES!

EXACTLY!
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Old April 22 2014, 11:01 PM   #9
sonak
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Re: Fair Haven and Janeway's "moral dilemma"

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Mulgrew was forcing her 20th century squeamishness onto a postpostpostpostmodern 24th century fox.

Mulgrew kept the Captain chaste for a very long time, she fought Berman hard, and this was the blow back from finally finding a romantic script that she approved of... If Mulgrew hadn't been so difficult, so afraid of being slutshamed by the 20th century audiences, the producers would have had Janeway making out with 4 or 5 different guest stars each season straight out of the gate.

Just think about some episodes that could have been solved with Janeway kissing the bad guy.

YES!

EXACTLY!


this is pretty much what I meant. The "dilemma" didn't seem to rise out of the context of the CHARACTER or the time period it was set in, it seemed to arise out of Mulgrew and the writers' ridiculous fears of how the audience would see it.


Think about it-150 people, away from their loved ones for years, access to the holodeck....


you really think they're just doing historical scenarios? Why Janeway would think her crew would care if she was engaging in holo-sex frequently is beyond me.
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Old April 22 2014, 11:32 PM   #10
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Re: Fair Haven and Janeway's "moral dilemma"

Logs are kept of holodeck activity.

Logs are kept of Universal Translator use, and everything goes through the universal translator, and massive red flag must be tripped if someone turns off the universal translator in any given room.

Kes and Neelix were a peep show for anyone with a high enough security clearance for the first three years.

After Seska was found to be a double agent, Tuvok would have had to have gone through the security logs relevant to Seska, Holodeck logs relevant to Seska, and universal translator logs relevant to Seska looking for evidence of associates, confidants and anyone else she had been manipulating with above average sex.

Jonas it seems knew how to cover his tracks quite well.
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Old April 22 2014, 11:57 PM   #11
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Re: Fair Haven and Janeway's "moral dilemma"

Oh.

Picard was a prude first.

He transferred his girlfriend he made on the ship (in Lessons) because he didn't want to order her to her death again... Which in the 20th century is something that could get him fired and why there are rules against superiors dating subordinates because power can be abused even with the best of intentions.

And when Vash showed up for a dirty weekend in Q-Pid, she discovered that her dirty old man considered the Enterprise a no-sex zone that he wasn't going to besmirch with his human weakness and juices.

So Janeway's behaviour is not atypical... Even though I am comparing her to a person (Picard is a man.) twice her age.
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Old April 23 2014, 12:17 AM   #12
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Re: Fair Haven and Janeway's "moral dilemma"

Yeah, you can't have romance with a direct subordinate without the power gradient becoming an issue.

If you're isolated in space I'm all for using the holodeck for self-gratification, so long as you're totally honest with yourself about what it is.

There is, however, the risk that the holodeck loses power while she is in the throes. That would be kind of awkward.

Even more ridiculous than the problems with stereotypes is the idea that they would go to absurd, self destructive lengths to keep it continuously running. Even Bashir would have shut off his holo-bromance Vic Fontaine if the power expenditure was becoming a threat to the station.
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Old April 23 2014, 12:19 AM   #13
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Re: Fair Haven and Janeway's "moral dilemma"

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
Now, I agree Janeway needed to eventually get it on with someone. They used the excuse that she "couldn't do it" with a member of her crew because everyone is her subordinate. I get it. But having Janeway go to those lengths seemed a little bit out of character.
I think Janeway felt it was somewhat out of character which is why she had qualms about some aspects of it, possibly it's the first time she'd included sex with her regular use of the holodeck. She'd bonded with holograms before but it had been the same way you might bond with an MMO character of your creation or an NPC in a game who you really like interacting with. Leonardo etc.. adding the sex shifted it to another level for her and that's what threw her.

I don't think she was going to "great lengths" doing it though. I think she saw it as a normal, something to encourage unpartnered crew members to engage in given their circumstances in the DQ. Eventually when everyone else is doing something your personal squeamishness about it breaks down, why not give it a whirl? It's not like giving Chak a whirl where you have to look at him every day afterwards for seventy years, you just walk away and end program.

So she tried it. And she couldn't quite handle it. And in the end she was okay about that.
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Old April 23 2014, 12:22 AM   #14
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Re: Fair Haven and Janeway's "moral dilemma"

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post

Just think about some episodes that could have been solved with Janeway kissing the bad guy.

YES!

EXACTLY!
What we need is NuTrek with a male captain who welcomes Q's booty calls and covers it up with mumblings about diplomatic relations.
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Old April 23 2014, 12:24 AM   #15
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Fair Haven and Janeway's "moral dilemma"

It certainly wouldn't have hurt the show to have a few recurring civilian characters around for Janeway to think about turning to for human company.
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