RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,147
Posts: 5,402,026
Members: 24,748
Currently online: 539
Newest member: ChrisCrash

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 14 2014, 08:43 AM   #46
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: Chris Pine/Kirk

He's also a lateral thinker, a man whose thinking is one step ahead of others.

See, the STiD scene where he figures out why they are all gathered here today at this meeting..

Good writing of NuKirk has helped a lot. Long may it continue. Could easily have been Spock that deduced that but it was a very Kirk thing to figure out.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 15 2014, 12:38 AM   #47
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: Chris Pine/Kirk

Last night I dreamed I was on JJ's Enterprise and I was following along behind Kirk and Spock on the way to the turbolift and NuKirk said, "NOW Mr. Spock.." in this very Shatnerian way and in the dream I thought "he really IS Kirk" and I was very thrilled.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 15 2014, 02:16 AM   #48
Iamnotspock
Captain
 
Location: Bristol, England
Re: Chris Pine/Kirk

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Depends how you see Kirk, doesn't it? Some fixate on Gary Mitchell's "Stack of books with legs" line from the second pilot and work backward from there, while minimizing Kirk's actions in "Amok Time" and the movies (Carol: "Jim Kirk was many things, but he was never a boy scout!") which firmly establish him as being insubordinate.
They really don't. The "stack of books with legs" line and Kirk's assertion in Shore Leave that he was a "grim" young man go together with his early characterisation as a Hamlet/Hornblower crossbreed to paint a man who is "so worried about duty and obligation [he] couldn't see past [his] own uniform." In TOS he's fairly by-the-book, but if push comes to shove he'll break the rules for the greater good (the one occasion he outright defies orders to save his friend, in Amok Time, is the exception not the rule), not because he likes sticking two fingers up to authority. Kirk the young rebel is a retcon that came out of TWOK, so there is a precedent, but the Kobayashi Maru incident (for which there was no mention of disciplinary action, but rather a commendation for original thinking) alone, and the oblique description of him never having been "a boy scout" might suggest "unorthodox," but it's quite a leap to "insubordinate."
Iamnotspock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 15 2014, 02:40 PM   #49
Franklin
Rear Admiral
 
Location: In the bleachers
Re: Chris Pine/Kirk

Iamnotspock wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Depends how you see Kirk, doesn't it? Some fixate on Gary Mitchell's "Stack of books with legs" line from the second pilot and work backward from there, while minimizing Kirk's actions in "Amok Time" and the movies (Carol: "Jim Kirk was many things, but he was never a boy scout!") which firmly establish him as being insubordinate.
They really don't. The "stack of books with legs" line and Kirk's assertion in Shore Leave that he was a "grim" young man go together with his early characterisation as a Hamlet/Hornblower crossbreed to paint a man who is "so worried about duty and obligation [he] couldn't see past [his] own uniform." In TOS he's fairly by-the-book, but if push comes to shove he'll break the rules for the greater good (the one occasion he outright defies orders to save his friend, in Amok Time, is the exception not the rule), not because he likes sticking two fingers up to authority. Kirk the young rebel is a retcon that came out of TWOK, so there is a precedent, but the Kobayashi Maru incident (for which there was no mention of disciplinary action, but rather a commendation for original thinking) alone, and the oblique description of him never having been "a boy scout" might suggest "unorthodox," but it's quite a leap to "insubordinate."
Yeah, I never saw Kirk as insubordinate. He understood the chain of command and followed orders. But he did have outstanding principles and never let the strict interpretation of regulations trump the moral factor. His interpretation of the prime directive in STID is a great example of that. His method was reckless and borderline stupid. It reeked of youth and inexperience. But his purpose and conviction was pure Jim Kirk.

Bear in mind if he were truly an insubordinate officer, he wouldn't have a very long career in Starfleet no matter how brilliant he was.
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain
Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2014, 02:50 AM   #50
Dennis
Commodore
 
Dennis's Avatar
 
Location: Planet Detroit
Re: Chris Pine/Kirk

Franklin wrote: View Post
Bear in mind if he were truly an insubordinate officer, he wouldn't have a very long career in Starfleet no matter how brilliant he was.
Oh come on, the dude steals and blows up starships and they give him new ones.

Starfleet has no real rules or structure beyond plot contrivance.
__________________
"One day it begins to be borne in on the writer...that he is living in Europe as an American. If he were living there as a European, he would be living on a different and far less attractive continent." - James Baldwin

Dennis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2014, 05:44 AM   #51
Franklin
Rear Admiral
 
Location: In the bleachers
Re: Chris Pine/Kirk

Dennis wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
Bear in mind if he were truly an insubordinate officer, he wouldn't have a very long career in Starfleet no matter how brilliant he was.
Oh come on, the dude steals and blows up starships and they give him new ones.

Starfleet has no real rules or structure beyond plot contrivance.
Forgive me. I interjected a moment of the real world into the proceedings.

Actually, I've always thought Kirk is the moral voice of Starfleet. He is the embodiment of the type of person Grace Hopper used to say was the type who found it easier to apologize rather than get permission. As in, I'm sorry I saved several billion people even though regulations said I probably shouldn't have. Who's morally correct regarding the aliens in the opening of STID, Kirk or Starfleet?

I'm sorry I stole the Enterprise and saved Spock, then brought Spock back to life when all of you were content with his death.

Kirk was larger than life, and reality.
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain
Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2014, 07:52 AM   #52
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Chris Pine/Kirk

If Star Trek were in any way realistic, Spock would be dead and Kirk rotting the rest of his life away in a prison for attempting to steal a Federation starship. It's a comic book fantasy world.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2014, 09:25 AM   #53
UFO
Captain
 
UFO's Avatar
 
Re: Chris Pine/Kirk

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
If Star Trek were in any way realistic, Spock would be dead and Kirk rotting the rest of his life away in a prison for attempting to steal a Federation starship. It's a comic book fantasy world.
With SF you have to change what is realistic to fit the givens of the universe you are watching. You may still judge the Genesis Device and what it can do, to be unrealistic of course. But not as unrealistic as it would be in a temporary cop show, for example.

So maybe Spock should still be dead (just not as dead ). Kirk's a little harder though. After all, how many courts have had to rule on someone who A) steals and destroys a starship but B) that's B) saves a whole world? I'd say its one each way.
UFO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2014, 12:48 PM   #54
CommishSleer
Fleet Captain
 
CommishSleer's Avatar
 
Location: At the After Party Still...
View CommishSleer's Twitter Profile
Re: Chris Pine/Kirk

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
If Star Trek were in any way realistic, Spock would be dead and Kirk rotting the rest of his life away in a prison for attempting to steal a Federation starship. It's a comic book fantasy world.
There's heaps of people who hijacked a Starship and got away with it.
Spock
Data
Those Awful Children
The Hippies
The Binars
Moriarity

And there were heaps of time when Picard, Kirk and Janeway lost control of the ship through invasion, disease or stupidity.

They're in space. A lot of mysterious unknown alien things happen.
If Starfleet dropped the captain every time they lost control of the ship or crew both Picard and Kirk would be gone after episode 3.
CommishSleer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 18 2014, 04:50 PM   #55
HIjol
Captain
 
HIjol's Avatar
 
Location: Currently U.A.E (a lot like Tatooine!)
Re: Chris Pine/Kirk

Franklin wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
Bear in mind if he were truly an insubordinate officer, he wouldn't have a very long career in Starfleet no matter how brilliant he was.
Oh come on, the dude steals and blows up starships and they give him new ones.

Starfleet has no real rules or structure beyond plot contrivance.
Forgive me. I interjected a moment of the real world into the proceedings.

Actually, I've always thought Kirk is the moral voice of Starfleet. He is the embodiment of the type of person Grace Hopper used to say was the type who found it easier to apologize rather than get permission. As in, I'm sorry I saved several billion people even though regulations said I probably shouldn't have. Who's morally correct regarding the aliens in the opening of STID, Kirk or Starfleet?

I'm sorry I stole the Enterprise and saved Spock, then brought Spock back to life when all of you were content with his death.

Kirk was larger than life, and reality.
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
If Star Trek were in any way realistic, Spock would be dead and Kirk rotting the rest of his life away in a prison for attempting to steal a Federation starship. It's a comic book fantasy world.
UFO wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
If Star Trek were in any way realistic, Spock would be dead and Kirk rotting the rest of his life away in a prison for attempting to steal a Federation starship. It's a comic book fantasy world.
With SF you have to change what is realistic to fit the givens of the universe you are watching. You may still judge the Genesis Device and what it can do, to be unrealistic of course. But not as unrealistic as it would be in a temporary cop show, for example.

So maybe Spock should still be dead (just not as dead ). Kirk's a little harder though. After all, how many courts have had to rule on someone who A) steals and destroys a starship but B) that's B) saves a whole world? I'd say its one each way.
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
If Star Trek were in any way realistic, Spock would be dead and Kirk rotting the rest of his life away in a prison for attempting to steal a Federation starship. It's a comic book fantasy world.
There's heaps of people who hijacked a Starship and got away with it.
Spock
Data
Those Awful Children
The Hippies
The Binars
Moriarity

And there were heaps of time when Picard, Kirk and Janeway lost control of the ship through invasion, disease or stupidity.

They're in space. A lot of mysterious unknown alien things happen.
If Starfleet dropped the captain every time they lost control of the ship or crew both Picard and Kirk would be gone after episode 3.
<As HIjol's Suspension of Disbelief comes crashing down like any given scene in "Inception">

...but just a gosh darned minute...hmmm...I want to present logical, well-layered arguments to the contrary to all of you...but I cannot summon them...they did beg, borrow and steal Starships, and for any number of Good, Bad, and Ugly reasons...especially Those Awful Children...

...still, Star Trek Rocks!!!!

__________________
"If man is to survive, he will delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear" Gene Roddenberry
HIjol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 18 2014, 05:08 PM   #56
Franklin
Rear Admiral
 
Location: In the bleachers
Re: Chris Pine/Kirk

That's why I said Kirk was larger than life, and reality.

At the same time, even in the fiction of Trek, he couldn't be written as a completely loose cannon and maintain the aura of moral and ethical correctness. Part of the drama was when regulations came up against what Kirk thought was right at the time (so well shown at the start of STID). You'd never want a "by the book" captain in the unknown reaches of deep space, where things can come up every day that fly in the face of the intent of regulations. At the same time, even Kirk and the others knew they were crossing a line and ruining their careers to save Spock in TSFS.

Kirk and the others didn't get by with anything in TSFS. They were charged with stealing Federation property (the Enterprise) and other things, and were more than willing to go back to Earth to face their punishments. Indeed, they plead guilty to all charges in TVH. It was only because of Kirk's heroics in TVH that all charges but the one against Kirk for disobeying a direct order were dropped.

Edited to add: Kirk also knew he was crossing a line in "Amok Time", but T'Pau basically intervened to save his career, there.

I guess the point is he wasn't flying around doing things his way willy nilly (practicing cowboy diplomacy) without some realization that he'd be held accountable for his actions in the end. That he turned out to be on the right side of things so often is part of what built his legend in the fictional Trek world.
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain

Last edited by Franklin; May 18 2014 at 05:23 PM.
Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 26 2014, 09:22 PM   #57
Joel_Kirk
Commodore
 
Joel_Kirk's Avatar
 
Location: Northern California...
Re: Chris Pine/Kirk

I like Chris Pine as Kirk. I just wish his character (and the other characters) were given better material.

(Looking at who is directing the next film, I'm not holding my breath).

I did, however, wonder how Pine would handle a T.J. Hooker film. heh heh heh
__________________
Joel_Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 26 2014, 09:51 PM   #58
dammitjim6400
Ensign
 
Re: Chris Pine/Kirk

I think Chris Pines Kirk wasn't to good, in the movies he was to unsure of himself, his crew doubted him, he's too wreckless, cocky and not a very good leader wasn't the Hero Shatners Kirk was..Out of all the Captains in Star Trek, in my opinion, Pine's Kirk is the worst.
dammitjim6400 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 26 2014, 11:17 PM   #59
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Chris Pine/Kirk

^He's unsure of himself by design, the idea being that he is ten years younger than the Kirk of TOS and isn't the confident leader quite yet.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2014, 09:07 AM   #60
The Colonel
Ensign
 
Location: Virginia, USA
Re: Chris Pine/Kirk

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
^He's unsure of himself by design, the idea being that he is ten years younger than the Kirk of TOS and isn't the confident leader quite yet.
Yes, he is young and inexperienced compared to TOS Kirk. But, the problem I have is that he is never shown to be a particularly good leader, someone who can bring together and inspire his crew while providing a stable center. Chris Pine is a fine actor but the scripts he has been given make his Kirk come off as an obnoxious, arrogant frat boy with a high IQ. Not only is he unlikeable to the audience, his crew is constantly annoyed and exasperated by him. His only saving grace is his innate intelligence and bravery but he is not someone you'd want to follow and he seems to always be out for his own personal gratification.

Some of these problems stem from the necessity for the writers to follow through with the ridiculous idea of Kirk being insta-promoted from Cadet to Captain of the flagship. I think ST:XI would have worked better if Kirk had graduated from the academy several years before Nero's attack and was a regular officer serving under Pike who was suddenly thrust into command. There was no reason to condense everything into such a short time span. Instead we wound up with Starfleet:90201.

There is potential in Pine's Kirk but the character needs some much better writing. I could also say the same for the film series in general, it needs to be toned down a bit and take its time to develop a good story. The acting, directing and visual effects are all great but I'm still waiting for a decent story. NuTrek has so far fallen into the trappings of lazy, cliché, big budget action movie writing. The story doesn't exist for its own sake, its just there to somewhat plausibly drive events towards the next CGI action set piece. Again there is potential and definitely more substance than say the Star Wars prequels (NuKirk is nowhere near as grating as Anakin) but every time I watch the new movies, they make me miss the lost art of screen writing.
__________________
"Kids are great Apu, you can teach them to hate all the things you hate and they practically raise themselves, you know with the internet these days."
-Homer Simpson
The Colonel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:21 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.