RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,703
Posts: 5,431,646
Members: 24,833
Currently online: 432
Newest member: PlainSimplGarak


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 28 2014, 01:39 AM   #31
FKnight
Commander
 
FKnight's Avatar
 
Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

Rarewolf wrote: View Post
If the Cube had of got to Earth they might not have been much safer there.
No one on Earth died during that engagement. Nearly everyone on a Starship did.
__________________
"You have been examined. Your ship must be destroyed. We make assumption you have a deity, or deities, or some such beliefs which comfort you. We therefore grant you ten Earth time periods known as minutes to make preparations."
FKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2014, 03:15 AM   #32
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

FKnight wrote: View Post
Rarewolf wrote: View Post
If the Cube had of got to Earth they might not have been much safer there.
No one on Earth died during that engagement. Nearly everyone on a Starship did.
The cube didn't reach Earth there, we've seen examples of the Borg harming people who weren't aboard starships.

Picard:
Two Federation outposts in sector three zero have been destroyed,
there's been no communication with Federation starbases in sector three one ...


That's from The Neutral Zone.

The New Providence colony had 900 people.

T'Girl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2014, 01:16 AM   #33
The Old Mixer
Vice Admiral
 
The Old Mixer's Avatar
 
Location: Connecticut
Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

Leaving the civilians stranded somewhere in emergency vehicles as a proactive measure just seems like an odd thing to do with little precedent in Trek. For the three times that we saw the saucer separated in TNG, how many more times did the Ent-D go into a dangerous situation without separating the saucer or resorting to the cruder civilian evacuation methods being discussed here?
__________________
50 years ago on July 6: A Hard Day's Night premieres in London.
The Old Mixer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30 2014, 06:17 PM   #34
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

AgentCoop wrote: View Post
How do we know they didn't offload people in shuttles before they arrived at Wolf 359? All we know for sure is that there were civilians still on board when the battle started. Maybe they evacuated as many people as they could before running out of shuttles.
It's a bit strange that Jake and Jennifer stayed in their quarters apparently in the outer rim section of the Saratoga.

Heck, even Kirk ordered Elaan of Troyius to go to sickbay, the innermost protected part of the ship, anticipating a battle with the Klingons.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30 2014, 09:45 PM   #35
AgentCoop
Fleet Captain
 
AgentCoop's Avatar
 
Location: Chillin' in the Black Lodge since June 10th, 1991
View AgentCoop's Twitter Profile
Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

^You know, after I posted that I thought about it some more and I realized that if they had done that, they would have made it a priority to get all the children off the ship. So Jake still shouldn't be there. So now my guess is that the Saratoga just didn't have time to offload any civilians.
AgentCoop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1 2014, 12:53 AM   #36
varek
Commander
 
varek's Avatar
 
Location: Danville, IN, USA
Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

I like the Galaxy-class ship that carried families aboard. As mentioned, this class has a separable saucer, so the civilians could be evacuated, if needed. And, you could leave the civilians behind at the nearest starbase before going into a known battle.
I wish more classes of starships had family accommodations.
__________________
Varek, Vulcan Engineer
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Time, like latinum, is a limited commodity.
varek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1 2014, 02:03 PM   #37
Kevman7987
Commander
 
Kevman7987's Avatar
 
Location: Erie, PA, USA
View Kevman7987's Twitter Profile
Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

AgentCoop wrote: View Post
So now my guess is that the Saratoga just didn't have time to offload any civilians.
There is a 3rd option that they might have been the only civilians on the ship?
__________________
"Don't do it, Meat!"
"Don't do it, Cheese!"
Kevman7987 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1 2014, 03:47 PM   #38
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

IIRC and according to this screencap, there were other civilians aboard - which IMHO, should have gathered and stayed during battle in a better protected part of the ship close to the escape pods.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1 2014, 05:04 PM   #39
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

This is admittedly a more fanciful thought, but:

Perhaps Saratoga's comm systems were offline for a time, and when they got the announcement that the Borg were heading for Wolf 359 they either had absolutely no time to "waste" offloading civilians, were already in the system and the battle basically started on top of them, or insert your own explanation here.

I think any starship captain who found out about a Borg incursion in an area where if they wanted to make a difference they needed to be there as soon as possible would not stop to drop off civilians. It's safe to assume that, children excepted, the civilians knew what they might be getting into when they asked to be on the ship in the first place.

I'm unaware of anyone who thought Sisko was "virtuous" with regards to Picard. Rather I think a number of people feel that Sisko's ire was understandable on an emotional level if not an intellectual one (since objectively Picard isn't to blame for Jennifer's death).
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1 2014, 05:28 PM   #40
Cyke101
Rear Admiral
 
Cyke101's Avatar
 
Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

Do we know if there was a decent amount of time between the fleet coming together and then the battle itself? I ask because even 30 or 45 minutes prior to battle should be enough to round up all the civilians into a ship (you have 40 of them, you can spare one -- and indeed, one did survive) and head for a starbase while the others do battle.

Yeah, there's a tinge of 20/20 hindsight in there, but Starfleet was expecting a big battle in any sense.
__________________
“You do not use science in order to prove yourself right, you use science in order to become right.”
Cyke101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1 2014, 06:04 PM   #41
Anwar
Vice Admiral
 
Anwar's Avatar
 
Location: Regina, SK, Canada
Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

Admiral Hanson said that they had the armada assembled 24 hours ahead of the Borg's ETA, but it's possible that he was just giving a projection and the ships hadn't all gathered at Wolf 359 yet.

And there's also the possibility that the ships that arrived may have overtaxed themselves to get there so fast, and needed time to repair any damages done in the process. Like how the USS Sutherland's system kept failing in "Redemption" when Data was in charge and they didn't even have a full crew.
Anwar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2014, 11:22 PM   #42
Tribble puncher
Commander
 
Tribble puncher's Avatar
 
Location: Lexington, KY
Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

Lance wrote: View Post
To be fair, the reason why later Star Trek ships abandoned the concept of families on board has been attributed to perhaps being exactly because the Battle of Wolf 359 acted as such an eye-opener. The idea of having families on board ("generation ships") was perhaps something Starfleet was experimenting with at the time of TNG, until incidents like the Borg incursion shown how foolhardy this could be.

Having said that, I agree that the armada that faced the Borg Cube knew they were going into battle, and the knowledge they had about the Borg meant they knew it might not be very pretty for them. So there really is no excuse for them not having off-loaded all of their non-essential personnel (like families) the moment that the mission briefing came through.

Same goes for the Enterprise, although as The Old Mixer says at least Enterprise has allegedly got a contingency plan (the saucer-sepper, not that Riker used it that way in the event!).

The best excuse I can offer is: the Titantic went out despite grave concerns being raised before she set off, about the massive gulf between the amount of passengers booked on her maiden voyage vs the paltry number of lifeboats. Sometimes it takes a big catastrophe in order to open the eyes of people to the most obvious of things. Sometimes idealism outweighs common sense, and it'd take families dying aboard ships like Saratoga to convince Starfleet maybe it isn't such a keen idea to put civilians on these things...
Yeah I mentioned this in a another thread, they even had a kid on an oberth class ship on one ep. (though to be fair, it was an S.S. ship not U.S.S. ship if memory serves, so it was prob. operated by a civilian group.) I just think Starfleet was way over optimistic at the time. They probably thought that peace with the klingons and the romulans while being dangerous were not threatening war, that eventually they would make peace with the romulans and major conflicts would be a thing of the past.
Tribble puncher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:26 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.