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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 27 2014, 12:34 PM   #16
The Old Mixer
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Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

Presumably they didn't have time to make such a trip...a bunch of ships had to come from all directions to get to the rendezvous point in time to intercept.

I know we're used to starships moving at the speed of plot, but warp speeds are supposed to have limits, and space is supposed to be big.
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Old April 27 2014, 12:44 PM   #17
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Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

Well you could get them out on Shuttles or half the escape pods before going into battle. Pick them up after if all went well.

I'd still say Picard's decision in Descent to send everyone he could spare down to (potentially) a PLANET OF BORG one of the more questionable choices of the run.
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Old April 27 2014, 12:48 PM   #18
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Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

Sure in an ideal situation they would evacuate non-combatants. But that takes time and i got the impression that 40 starships was all that Starfleet could cobble together into a fleet given the time that they had.

Ships might have been nowhere near a Class M planet/starbase or one they could detour to and still make the rendezvous.
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Old April 27 2014, 01:48 PM   #19
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Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

How do we know they didn't offload people in shuttles before they arrived at Wolf 359? All we know for sure is that there were civilians still on board when the battle started. Maybe they evacuated as many people as they could before running out of shuttles.
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Old April 27 2014, 01:52 PM   #20
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Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

Or that the Saratoga could have been in the Wolf 359 system.
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Old April 27 2014, 02:20 PM   #21
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Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
popcultureevil wrote: View Post
Just thinking about loud.

Just to me it's not a case of Sisko being the absolute victim, even though it was normal for him (who would say otherwise) to assign blame to Picard in some sense.
There's not clear indication that Sisko blames Picard for Wolf 359. The animosity is symbolic of Sisko's own psychology, his inability to move beyond his wife's death. To that extent, Sisko is a reminder of the tragedy that Sisko has faced. It's a bit much to claim that Sisko is "the absolute victim," as if he is just acting selfishly, even when in daily life people might normally have difficulty facing people indirectly involved in their loved ones' deaths.

er.. yes. The issue is that Sisko is often seen in the Trek community as the virtuous party in Emissary when he meets Picard. I simply differ in my perspective, since IMO Picard couldn't do anything feasibly to prevent assimilation.

We all think differently though, not necessarily in black and white terms.
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Old April 27 2014, 03:42 PM   #22
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Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

???

Sisko is almost universally recognized as the most emotional, most volatile, and ultimately, the most human of the ST captains. In Emissary, he is presented as a man who's life has stalled because the memory of his wife's death overwhelms him. The only thing he has going for him is his relationship with his son. By the end of the episode, the Prophets get Sisko to realize that he has been wallowing in misery, a realization that implicitly begins his healing. Sisko's hostility towards Picard is not understood to be justified, but it is seen as being natural. Indeed, Sisko has always been regarded as the opposite of Picard, the one who makes emotional choices, not rational ones.
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Old April 27 2014, 04:26 PM   #23
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Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
???

Sisko is almost universally recognized as the most emotional, most volatile, and ultimately, the most human of the ST captains. In Emissary, he is presented as a man who's life has stalled because the memory of his wife's death overwhelms him. The only thing he has going for him is his relationship with his son. By the end of the episode, the Prophets get Sisko to realize that he has been wallowing in misery, a realization that implicitly begins his healing. Sisko's hostility towards Picard is not understood to be justified, but it is seen as being natural. Indeed, Sisko has always been regarded as the opposite of Picard, the one who makes emotional choices, not rational ones.
I know it's natural. As said, I'm just stating my view, contrary to the popular ideal.
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Old April 27 2014, 04:51 PM   #24
-Brett-
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Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

The characters themselves got over this scene (where the hostility between them has been vastly exaggerated by fans to begin with) in an hour. After twenty years, shouldn't fans start to get over it by now?
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Old April 27 2014, 05:30 PM   #25
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Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

^Excellent point. I saw "Emissary" a few months ago for the first time in over ten years and I was shocked to learn that there was far less tension between the two than I remembered.
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Old April 27 2014, 06:04 PM   #26
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Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

popcultureevil wrote: View Post
The issue is that Sisko is often seen in the Trek community as the virtuous party in Emissary when he meets Picard. I simply differ in my perspective, since IMO Picard couldn't do anything feasibly to prevent assimilation.
You're making the assumption that there is a right and wrong in this situation.
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Old April 27 2014, 06:54 PM   #27
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Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
popcultureevil wrote: View Post
The issue is that Sisko is often seen in the Trek community as the virtuous party in Emissary when he meets Picard. I simply differ in my perspective, since IMO Picard couldn't do anything feasibly to prevent assimilation.
You're making the assumption that there is a right and wrong in this situation.
In a lot of ways, Picard and Sisko are in the same situation. They've both been victimized by the Borg, and neither man will ever recover completely.
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Old April 27 2014, 08:07 PM   #28
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Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

Rarewolf wrote: View Post
Well you could get them out on Shuttles or half the escape pods before going into battle. Pick them up after if all went well.
Seems to me that certainly loading the non-combatants into escape pods - life boats would be the way to go, there would have been enough for all of them, and still had enough left over to accommodate the crew if necessary.

Load the life boats up and when ready briefly drop out of warp, jettison the boats into space and re-engage warp. Total time lost less than a single minute.

Inform Starfleet where the boats were dropped in case the ship is disabled or destroyed.

Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
Sisko is almost universally recognized as the most emotional, most volatile, and ultimately, the most human of the ST captains.
Universally? No, but I would definitely agree with "most volatile."

I'd say Kirk was the most Human of the ST captains.

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Old April 27 2014, 08:29 PM   #29
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Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
popcultureevil wrote: View Post
The issue is that Sisko is often seen in the Trek community as the virtuous party in Emissary when he meets Picard. I simply differ in my perspective, since IMO Picard couldn't do anything feasibly to prevent assimilation.
You're making the assumption that there is a right and wrong in this situation.
I don't think there is. Just stating my view in response to the common "Sisko was right to be 'a bitch' to Picard" belief.

No life situation, even fictional scenarios like this, is black and white.
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Old April 27 2014, 08:36 PM   #30
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Re: Picard was right, Sisko was in the wrong..

popcultureevil wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
popcultureevil wrote: View Post
The issue is that Sisko is often seen in the Trek community as the virtuous party in Emissary when he meets Picard. I simply differ in my perspective, since IMO Picard couldn't do anything feasibly to prevent assimilation.
You're making the assumption that there is a right and wrong in this situation.
I don't think there is. Just stating my view in response to the common "Sisko was right to be 'a bitch' to Picard" belief.

No life situation, even fictional scenarios like this, is black and white.
But IS that the "common" belief? Because I haven't seen a lot of people in the fandom expressing that.
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