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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 2 2014, 05:13 PM   #211
Kelthaz
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Dennis wrote: View Post
Gep Malakai wrote: View Post
And also: who (outside Ovation and Dennis) is defining "failure' as meaning "financial failure?" Because that's really the only definition of the word that citing box office can possibly rebut.
It's the only one that's not personal opinion.
Which means you should dismiss that definition. Conversations are usually about personal opinions.
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Old May 2 2014, 05:43 PM   #212
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Which means you should dismiss that definition. Conversations are usually about personal opinions.
Maybe the more interesting conversation to be had is about the fact that box office is largely driven by personal opinion, which is why studios invest so heavily in influencing and managing those opinions and why argument-from-consensus has become such a common tactic. That's really the function of argument-from-profit, the same reason that marketers trumpet that such-and-such film is "the number one movie in the world" (for a week or a day or fifteen minutes or whatever) -- because how could all those people be wrong? And if you can get the conversation on the review aggregators going your way, you can back this up with "critical acclaim" -- because how could all those critics be wrong? And who are we to argue with them? The Health of the Body is paramount.

I understand why studios do this. I don't like it, but I understand it; it's their job, and if I were a studio publicist I'd probably have strong incentives to use the same tactics. What I don't understand is why fans sign on to act like they're part of Paramount's marketing apparatus. Is someone who hasn't been persuaded at this point by argumetum ad populum and the consensus strategy really going to be persuaded by one more guy telling him His Opinion Is Wrong Because Box Office? It doesn't make sense.
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Old May 2 2014, 05:55 PM   #213
Trek4Ever
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Will Paramount give the directing job for a film that comes out on the 50th anniversary of Star Trek on someone who has never directed a film before? It doesn't make any sense, if they do that it will prove that the film studio just doesn't hold Trek in high regard.

I came across an article listing some directors that could do the gig. Some of them like Bryan Singer and Duncan Jones are good choices (putting aside Singer's non-film headaches) but at this point Paramount should be actively looking for a legit choice.
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Old May 2 2014, 06:32 PM   #214
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Brad Bird would be my pick, as he's good with ensembles and was the only director to deliver a genuinely good Bad Robot production to date. Sadly, he's busy with TOMORROWLAND.
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Old May 2 2014, 06:41 PM   #215
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

BigJake wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
All of those attempting to refute Dennis are missing the point. It's not about "good" or "bad", it's about commercial "success" or "failure".
I actually do remember that specific point coming up and Makeshift quite specifically saying he was talking about good or bad, not commercial success or failure, which it seems to me -- even it wasn't reasonably obvious from what came before -- should have cleared that up. Right? But then after that we have a post by the estimable Dennis talking about box office as an "objective" standard or yardstick or what have you. And it is an objective measure of commercial success (at least short term) but unfortunately that has nothing to do with measuring quality which the guy he was supposedly talking to (or at least at or around) was specifically talking about and he knows that.

See how that's a problem? It's a problem. Responding with box office numbers to conversations about quality does not make sense. It is a non sequitur. It looks almost like the avoidance of a conversation about quality in favour of choosing to answer an unasked question about something else entirely and pretending that unasked question is what the other guy was really talking about. (And you can choose to bang the "studios care only about commercial success or failure" drum if you like, which is great, but it's pretty hard to make that relevant to audience members who are best placed to judge whether they liked the film. Which incidentally is why subjective does not mean the same thing as irrelevant.)
What is a good movie? What is quality in a movie?
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Old May 2 2014, 06:45 PM   #216
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

beamMe wrote: View Post
What is a good movie? What is quality in a movie?
Space marines, dragons, giant robots and blue cat person sex, obviously. I covered that.
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Old May 2 2014, 06:47 PM   #217
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

BigJake wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
What is a good movie? What is quality in a movie?
Space marines, dragons, giant robots and blue cat person sex, obviously. I covered that.
Come on. How do you measure good and quality objectively in a film?
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Old May 2 2014, 06:50 PM   #218
Geoff Peterson
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

beamMe wrote: View Post

What is a good movie? What is quality in a movie?
A good movie is one that I like. A quality movie, that's a bit harder. I suppose it's possible to have great acting, writing and production values yet fail to entertain and engage.
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Old May 2 2014, 06:50 PM   #219
BigSnake
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

beamMe wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
What is a good movie? What is quality in a movie?
Space marines, dragons, giant robots and blue cat person sex, obviously. I covered that.
Come on. How do you measure good and quality objectively in a film?
Who said you do? You mostly measure it subjectively. But I'd like to thank you for asking that question because it just so happens I have treated it at length in this nifty feature over at my webzone and everyone is welcome to go have a look.

Hope that helps.
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Old May 2 2014, 09:08 PM   #220
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

BigJake wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post

Space marines, dragons, giant robots and blue cat person sex, obviously. I covered that.
Come on. How do you measure good and quality objectively in a film?
Who said you do? You mostly measure it subjectively. But I'd like to thank you for asking that question because it just so happens I have treated it at length in this nifty feature over at my webzone and everyone is welcome to go have a look.

Hope that helps.
I'm still not reading your blog.

What I will say is that, for me, the new Trek films have captured Star Trek in a way that none of the spinoffs and films have done thus far. Watching these films is like coming home again: to Saturday mornings watching reruns of Trek in syndication.

At some point in my adult life, and I'm not sure where or when it happened, I stopped caring about plot coherency more than emotional truth. I bought Kirk as a person and his burgeoning friendship with Spock. McCoy's irritable but well-intentioned nature tickled me in almost the same way that DeForest Kelley's portrayal did. I don't care if Admiral Marcus' plot makes sense, because Kirk's reaction to that plot and his struggles to overcome it felt true and real.

Also, I'm right and you're wrong, so nyaah.
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Old May 2 2014, 09:13 PM   #221
Dennis
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

The Stig wrote: View Post
What I will say is that, for me, the new Trek films have captured Star Trek in a way that none of the spinoffs and films have done thus far. Watching these films is like coming home again: to Saturday mornings watching reruns of Trek in syndication.

At some point in my adult life, and I'm not sure where or when it happened, I stopped caring about plot coherency more than emotional truth. I bought Kirk as a person and his burgeoning friendship with Spock. McCoy's irritable but well-intentioned nature tickled me in almost the same way that DeForest Kelley's portrayal did. I don't care if Admiral Marcus' plot makes sense, because Kirk's reaction to that plot and his struggles to overcome it felt true and real.

Also, I'm right and you're wrong, so nyaah.
Voting is now closed: Post Of The Month.
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Old May 2 2014, 10:29 PM   #222
BigSnake
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

The Stig wrote: View Post
I'm still not reading your blog.
With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant.

At some point in my adult life, and I'm not sure where or when it happened, I stopped caring about plot coherency more than emotional truth.
Perfectly fair.

Also, I'm right and you're wrong, so nyaah.
Now that's the spirit!
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Old May 3 2014, 01:17 AM   #223
BillJ
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

The Stig wrote: View Post

What I will say is that, for me, the new Trek films have captured Star Trek in a way that none of the spinoffs and films have done thus far. Watching these films is like coming home again: to Saturday mornings watching reruns of Trek in syndication.
This is exactly how I feel. Felt like I was eight again watching the Abrams movies. Sometimes pure fun outweighs being overly critical about a movie.
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Old May 3 2014, 03:36 AM   #224
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Agenda wrote: View Post
Amazing Spider-Man 2 just racking up the great reviews, now at 56% tomatometre. Or maybe Orci is still a genius and it's everyone else's fault that this flick is apparently a mess.

Well, since you bring up the "Rotten Tomatoes" site, let's see what it says about the Star Trek feature films, past and present:

As for critical reception for the JJ Abrams films (from Rotten Tomatoes):
Star Trek (2009) - Critics 95% Audience 91% (Link)
Star Trek: Into Darkness- Critics 87% Audience 90% (Link)

As for other ST feature films:
Star Trek: TMP - Critics 45% Audience 42% (Link)
Star Trek II: TWoK - Critics 90% Audience 90% (Link)
Star Trek III: TSFS - Critics 78% Audience 61% (Link)
Star Trek IV: TVH - Critics 85% Audience 81% (Link)
Star Trek V: TFF - Critics 21% Audience 25% (Link)
Star Trek VI: TUC - Critics 83% Audience 83% (Link)
Star Trek: Generations - Critics 47% Audience 58% (Link)
Star Trek: First Contact - Critics 92% Audience 89% (Link)
Star Trek: Insurrection - Critics 55% Audience 45% (Link)
Star Trek: Nemesis - Critics 37% Audience 50% (Link)

Interesting, wouldn't you say?
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Old May 3 2014, 03:43 AM   #225
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Most of these are in hindsight reviews, since RT doesn't exist since 1979. Thus, they should be taken with a grain of salt.
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