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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old April 29 2014, 08:02 PM   #136
BigJake
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Sindatur wrote: View Post
I don't understand this 9/11 Truther parable accusation?
STID features an internal Section 31 faction (represented by Admiral Marcus) that arguably schemes to generate false-flag terrorist attacks on the Federation in order to justify war with the Klingon Empire. The parallel with Truther false-flag theories about 9-11 and the Iraq War seems obvious to some... I can't really get there (on account of the story is too murky to fully make out who's scheming for what or precisely why or whose actions are part of whose schemes), but I wouldn't rule out that it's what they were going for.
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Old April 29 2014, 08:03 PM   #137
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

BigJake wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
I don't understand this 9/11 Truther parable accusation?
STID features an internal Section 31 faction (represented by Admiral Marcus) that arguably schemes to generate false-flag terrorist attacks on the Federation in order to justify war with the Klingon Empire. The parallel with Truther theories about 9-11 and the Iraq War seems obvious to some... I can't really get there, but I wouldn't rule out that it's what they were going for.
I'd say the Cuba parallel is way more on-point.
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Old April 29 2014, 08:05 PM   #138
Sindatur
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

BigJake wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
I don't understand this 9/11 Truther parable accusation?
STID features an internal Section 31 faction (represented by Admiral Marcus) that arguably schemes to generate false-flag terrorist attacks on the Federation in order to justify war with the Klingon Empire. The parallel with Truther theories about 9-11 and the Iraq War seems obvious to some... I can't really get there, but I wouldn't rule out that it's what they were going for.
But, 9/11 Truther stuff was a direct attack on Pres. Bush and VP Darth Cheney. There is no President, whatsoever involved in STiD, it was a Rogue Admiral doing it (presumably) behind The President's back.

If you're going to apply it to any Rogue Admirals and so on down the line, anytime, anyone in Government/The Military has gone Rogue in any movie, since the 9/11 Attacks could be levelled with that same accusation, and you could also accuse the 9/11 Truther believers of stealing the idea from any movies with a Rogue Government/Military official that were made prior to 09/11/01
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Old April 29 2014, 08:20 PM   #139
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

MakeshiftPython wrote:
...personally feels like an insult to everyone that had to go through that horrible moment.
I doubt that anyone who really had to "go through that horrible moment" in any personal sense would expend any energy feeling insulted by some vague parallelism to some of those events in a skiffy movie made twelve years later. Let's not wrap ourselves too tightly in that mantle just because we don't like something, hmm?
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Old April 29 2014, 08:25 PM   #140
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

The Stig wrote:
I'd say the Cuba parallel is way more on-point.
In the Operation Northwoods sense? Yeah, could be.

Sindatur wrote: View Post
But, 9/11 Truther stuff was a direct attack on Pres. Bush and VP Darth Cheney.
Arguably it's become a subset of a larger "false-flag paranoia" culture. 9-11 Trutherism often overlaps with beliefs that the Oklahoma City bombing or the Sandy Hook shootings*, for instance, were Federal government plots.

(* Yes, really.)
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Old April 29 2014, 08:25 PM   #141
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

CaptPapa wrote: View Post
I'm trying to stay away from passing judgment on Mr. Orci's potential as a director, but I can understand a studio being reluctant to entrust a film with the mega-budget of the next Star Trek film to a novice.
Oh, I can understand the studio being hesitant in that regard. What I find problematical is the reaction of certain posters online jumping to the conclusion that he must be an awful director when there's no legitimate basis for forming a valid opinion on his ability to do something we've never actually seen him do. It's just the same kind of kneejerk negativity that I'm tired of seeing in fandom.
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Old April 29 2014, 08:41 PM   #142
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

BigJake wrote: View Post
The Stig wrote:
I'd say the Cuba parallel is way more on-point.
In the Operation Northwoods sense? Yeah, could be.

Sindatur wrote: View Post
But, 9/11 Truther stuff was a direct attack on Pres. Bush and VP Darth Cheney.
Arguably it's become a subset of a larger "false-flag paranoia" culture. 9-11 Trutherism often overlaps with beliefs that the Oklahoma City bombing or the Sandy Hook shootings*, for instance, were Federal government plots.

(* Yes, really.)
Oh, sure, there's any number of Nutbars who buy Tin/Aluminum Foil to use for headgear, rather than for cooking with. But, when you leave out the distinguishing characteristic of linking it to the President, it doesn't make any sense to call it 9/11 Trutherism.

Otherwise, anybody who shoots a Hunting buddy by mistake in a movie or Television show could be called a swipe at VP Cheney, or a Middle Manager at an Advertizing Firm having someone working under their desk could be called a swipe at Pres. Clinton.
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Old April 29 2014, 09:03 PM   #143
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Wasn't Abrams given a 150 million directorial debut with Mission Impossible 3?
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Old April 29 2014, 09:15 PM   #144
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Christopher wrote: View Post
CaptPapa wrote: View Post
I'm trying to stay away from passing judgment on Mr. Orci's potential as a director, but I can understand a studio being reluctant to entrust a film with the mega-budget of the next Star Trek film to a novice.
Oh, I can understand the studio being hesitant in that regard. What I find problematical is the reaction of certain posters online jumping to the conclusion that he must be an awful director when there's no legitimate basis for forming a valid opinion on his ability to do something we've never actually seen him do. It's just the same kind of kneejerk negativity that I'm tired of seeing in fandom.
The older I get, the more I try to stay in the To Each Their Own camp. I used up a lot of energy trying to tell everyone that the sky was falling back when TNG was starting up. It was all revisited when JJTrek came along, and I had a flashback of how ridiculess I must have sounded. But a lot of people like the nu stuff, and sure as hell nobody's going to make the Star Trek movie or series I would most want. Just because I didn't like STID (does anyone else see Sexually Transmitted Disease when reading that in print?) it doesn't make Mr. Abrams a bad director.
And while I'm rattling on, my little pet peave is those who present opinion as fact - arguing against that is a Kobayashi Maru scenario if I ever saw one.

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Old April 29 2014, 09:19 PM   #145
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Wasn't Abrams given a 150 million directorial debut with Mission Impossible 3?

That was his feature film debut, yes - but he had directed 9 TV episodes prior to that (Felicity, Lost, Alias).
Info from IMDB

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Old April 29 2014, 09:52 PM   #146
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Christopher wrote: View Post
Oh, I can understand the studio being hesitant in that regard. What I find problematical is the reaction of certain posters online jumping to the conclusion that he must be an awful director when there's no legitimate basis for forming a valid opinion on his ability to do something we've never actually seen him do. It's just the same kind of kneejerk negativity that I'm tired of seeing in fandom.
Uhm how about his TOTAL lack of experience. Every other "first time" director had experience even if it was music videos or TV. Most of the good ones started small and worked their way up with ever larger projects. Many either studied film making or were mentored with someone with more experience. None of this applies to Orci.

Unless they plan to make ST3 a much smaller film (ala original Khan) the shear size of production will probably overwhelm him.
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Old April 29 2014, 09:57 PM   #147
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Sindatur wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
I don't understand this 9/11 Truther parable accusation?
STID features an internal Section 31 faction (represented by Admiral Marcus) that arguably schemes to generate false-flag terrorist attacks on the Federation in order to justify war with the Klingon Empire. The parallel with Truther theories about 9-11 and the Iraq War seems obvious to some... I can't really get there, but I wouldn't rule out that it's what they were going for.
But, 9/11 Truther stuff was a direct attack on Pres. Bush and VP Darth Cheney. There is no President, whatsoever involved in STiD, it was a Rogue Admiral doing it (presumably) behind The President's back.

If you're going to apply it to any Rogue Admirals and so on down the line, anytime, anyone in Government/The Military has gone Rogue in any movie, since the 9/11 Attacks could be levelled with that same accusation, and you could also accuse the 9/11 Truther believers of stealing the idea from any movies with a Rogue Government/Military official that were made prior to 09/11/01
I'd disregard the 9/11 truther stuff, but given Orci's involvement and the way things play out in the film, I'm not easy to dismiss it as a rehashed James Bond plot. They don't have to have the top president to make it a 9/11 truther parable, that would be too obvious and I can imagine the studio heads would have been hesitant to go that route. Instead it's someone who's the top head of Starfleet making the call. But then you have Khan using the Vengeance to crash into a city and in the credits there's a direct reference to 9/11. It's a sloppy parable, but it's close enough that I can't really get into it because it gets too close.

Dennis wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Abrams, Lindelof, Kurtzman, Orci, they're all guilty as far as I'm concerned.
They're guilty of making the first Trek movies in a decade that weren't boring-ass wankfests.
Reread what you quoted:

"As far as I'm concerned".

Emphasis on "I'm", as in me, my opinion, not anyone else's.
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Old April 29 2014, 10:14 PM   #148
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

BigJake wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
I don't understand this 9/11 Truther parable accusation?
STID features an internal Section 31 faction (represented by Admiral Marcus) that arguably schemes to generate false-flag terrorist attacks on the Federation in order to justify war with the Klingon Empire. The parallel with Truther false-flag theories about 9-11 and the Iraq War seems obvious to some... I can't really get there (on account of the story is too murky to fully make out who's scheming for what or precisely why or whose actions are part of whose schemes), but I wouldn't rule out that it's what they were going for.
Though the greater message was "don't act out of revenge", which is fine by me, if a bit heavy-handed. The 9/11 connection nis very visible, but I wouldn't say the conspiracy connection it that present.

I didn't know Orci was a truther, though. That certainly lowers my appreciation of him. I've debated these guys for a few years, and Spock's head would explode if he had to do that.
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Old April 29 2014, 10:18 PM   #149
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Yminale wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Oh, I can understand the studio being hesitant in that regard. What I find problematical is the reaction of certain posters online jumping to the conclusion that he must be an awful director when there's no legitimate basis for forming a valid opinion on his ability to do something we've never actually seen him do. It's just the same kind of kneejerk negativity that I'm tired of seeing in fandom.
Uhm how about his TOTAL lack of experience. Every other "first time" director had experience even if it was music videos or TV. Most of the good ones started small and worked their way up with ever larger projects. Many either studied film making or were mentored with someone with more experience. None of this applies to Orci.

Unless they plan to make ST3 a much smaller film (ala original Khan) the shear size of production will probably overwhelm him.

Every other first time director had prior experience; no exceptions? Hmmm . . . I guess the Internet Movie DataBase has it wrong.
We just went through this issue up-thread.

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Old April 29 2014, 10:19 PM   #150
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Re: 全tar Trek 3′: Roberto Orci Wants to Direct

Yminale wrote: View Post
Uhm how about his TOTAL lack of experience. Every other "first time" director had experience even if it was music videos or TV. Most of the good ones started small and worked their way up with ever larger projects. Many either studied film making or were mentored with someone with more experience. None of this applies to Orci.
Do you know for a fact that none of it applies to him, or are you just assuming? I mean, he's been working alongside Abrams for many years now, so is it really reasonable to assume he's gotten absolutely no directorial mentoring of any kind? Maybe the reason he's pushing for this is because he's reached the point where he's learned enough about directing to be ready to take it on.

Now, granted, it would make more sense for him to start with episodes of his TV shows and build up to directing a movie -- but then, you can direct a whole lot of TV episodes in the time it takes to prep a feature film. Maybe he's already planning to do that, but he has to start pushing for the movie gig now because movie directors are generally hired so far in advance of filming.
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