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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old April 25 2014, 09:32 AM   #31
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: A TOS resurgence?

TREK_GOD_1 wrote:
One can argue--confidently--that the JJ films did not bring attention back to TOS, but the situation was/is reversed.
Post TOS-R, there was nothing new in the TOS world, beyond novels, comics and merchandise which is purchased by 2% or less of the TV viewing and moviegoing audience. You may like to pretend that's enough, but once that ageing fanbase was gone, there would have been nothing. Fan films were popular for a time, but the latest entries from Phase II and Continues have less than 200,000 views each on Youtube. A good selling Trek novel shifts around 300,000 copies. ST'09 sold more than 7 million copies on DVD alone and is the #4 best selling Bluray of all time in the US with 4 million copies sold. Unlike the fan films, people actually had to pay money for those. ST'09's release led to a spike in sales of past Trek on DVD. After Into Darkness was released, Wrath of Khan became the #1 on-demand rental.

I think it's pretty irrefutable that the new created a surge of interest in the old.
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Old April 25 2014, 12:46 PM   #32
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Re: A TOS resurgence?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
I see. So this thread is basically about Warped9 and TREKGOD delusionally agreeing with each other about how JJTrek did nothing to help the TOS resurgence that is the subject of the OP.

Gotcha. I'm outta here.
We did not say that JJ did not contribute to renewed interest in TOS. Indeed if you back to my original post that started this thread you'll see I even mention the films. What we dispute is the assertion that JJ "saved" the franchise. That is patent b.s.
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Old April 25 2014, 03:57 PM   #33
BillJ
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Re: A TOS resurgence?

I still don't understand the hate that the Abrams films get from some people. When I watch them, I feel like a kid again experiencing Trek for the first time.

They are simply damn fun to watch (Into Darkness is on EPIX right now). Not perfect, but then neither was TOS.
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Old April 25 2014, 04:05 PM   #34
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Re: A TOS resurgence?

JJ-Trek benefited from/was watched at all because Star Trek TOS, not the other way around.
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Old April 25 2014, 04:09 PM   #35
BillJ
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Re: A TOS resurgence?

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
JJ-Trek benefited from/was watched at all because Star Trek TOS, not the other way around.
From Star Trek fans, yes. General audiences likely thought it looked like a good sci-fi/action movie from the trailers and commercials.
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Old April 25 2014, 04:28 PM   #36
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: A TOS resurgence?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
TREK_GOD_1 wrote:
One can argue--confidently--that the JJ films did not bring attention back to TOS, but the situation was/is reversed.
Post TOS-R, there was nothing new in the TOS world, beyond novels, comics and merchandise which is purchased by 2% or less of the TV viewing and moviegoing audience. You may like to pretend that's enough, but once that ageing fanbase was gone, there would have been nothing. Fan films were popular for a time, but the latest entries from Phase II and Continues have less than 200,000 views each on Youtube. A good selling Trek novel shifts around 300,000 copies. ST'09 sold more than 7 million copies on DVD alone and is the #4 best selling Bluray of all time in the US with 4 million copies sold. Unlike the fan films, people actually had to pay money for those. ST'09's release led to a spike in sales of past Trek on DVD. After Into Darkness was released, Wrath of Khan became the #1 on-demand rental.

I think it's pretty irrefutable that the new created a surge of interest in the old.
...but you cannot get around...

In comes JJ, and instead of creating all new characters, or trying to piggyback on the Berman shows, the studio went to the face, heart--universally recognized identity of the ST concept: TOS. One can argue--confidently--that the JJ films did not bring attention back to TOS, but the situation was/is reversed.

All one has to ask is: would anyone care about a JJ-Trek film with new or rebooted Berman characters?
Without TOS, JJ has no ST film. TOS as a cultural magnet was the point of interest, otherwise, he would have watered down another group of characters, and no one would have paid attention.
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Old April 25 2014, 05:59 PM   #37
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Re: A TOS resurgence?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Shat Happens wrote: View Post
JJ-Trek benefited from/was watched at all because Star Trek TOS, not the other way around.
From Star Trek fans, yes. General audiences likely thought it looked like a good sci-fi/action movie from the trailers and commercials.
Was busy with some other things and hit reply before finishing my thoughts.

Yes, the Abramsverse films obviously owe their existence to TOS. As does every other bit of Trek made since 1969. Yes, the opening weekend obviously benefited by Star Trek (2009) being the first Kirk and Spock adventure since 1991. But there was more to it than just that. People obviously enjoyed the two films or else folks wouldn't have kept showing up for them. The films had good "word-of-mouth" or else they'd have opened and dropped off the radar almost instantly, much like the last two TNG film outings.
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Old April 25 2014, 06:18 PM   #38
Warped9
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Re: A TOS resurgence?

BillJ wrote: View Post
I still don't understand the hate that the Abrams films get from some people. When I watch them, I feel like a kid again experiencing Trek for the first time.

They are simply damn fun to watch (Into Darkness is on EPIX right now). Not perfect, but then neither was TOS.
I've tried to explain more than enough times why I find JJtrek offensive I don't know why I bother trying to explain anymore.

But I will say that the old argument of TOS wasn't perfect doesn't wash because it's a weak argument. Nothing is ever perfect, even those things we love. But TOS never stopped trying even when they stumbled. All JJtrek did was pander to way overdone cliches and cheap expectations. It went for the adolescent sensibilities.

One thing I absolutely love about TOS is that unlike all the other popular sci-fi of the era was that it aimed higher. As an 11 year old and into my early teens I could enjoy the adventure and cool visuals and hardware. And as the years passed I could see that TOS worked even better on an adult level where I could appreciate all those things I was only dimly aware of when I was younger.

From where I stand JJ made a Trek indistinguishable from Star Wars or Lost In Space--sci-fi for adolescents. It had none of the intelligence, nuance or adult oriented sensibilities of the source materiel.

I cannot argue its popular success, but then again I reject all sorts of stuff that can be popular all while also being disposable.

JJtrek exists because of TOS' popularity and very existence. It could well have generated additional interest in TOS. But it absolutely did not revive interest in TOS or supposedly "save" the franchise.
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Old April 25 2014, 09:05 PM   #39
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Re: A TOS resurgence?

BillJ wrote: View Post
I still don't understand the hate that the Abrams films get from some people. When I watch them, I feel like a kid again experiencing Trek for the first time.

They are simply damn fun to watch (Into Darkness is on EPIX right now). Not perfect, but then neither was TOS.
I found them snoozefests. I yawned my way through both of them. But, yes, the irrational hatred is bizarre.
Warped9 wrote: View Post
JJtrek exists because of TOS' popularity and very existence.
All Trek every written, produced, and released exists because of TOS's popularity and very existence. No one in this thread arguing otherwise, so I'm not sure what your point is.
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Old April 26 2014, 03:07 AM   #40
The Old Mixer
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Re: A TOS resurgence?

Some here are overestimating how familiar TOS is to later generations. There are later generations of Trek fans on this board who haven't watched TOS, or who've tried to watch it and not enjoyed it. And these are people who care enough about Trek to hang out on a Trek-themed BBS. Imagine how much less familiar their non-fan contemporaries must be with this TV show that more or less turns 50 this year....
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Old April 26 2014, 10:25 AM   #41
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: A TOS resurgence?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
JJtrek exists because of TOS' popularity and very existence. It could well have generated additional interest in TOS. But it absolutely did not revive interest in TOS or supposedly "save" the franchise.
There are people on this forum who became Star Trek fans because of the new movies. I realize how much you abhor the thought of it, but of course the new movies revived interest in TOS.

And as for saving the franchise, there is a big budget movie based on TOS coming in 2016. Without the reboot, there would not have been. Again, it may not be relevant to your tastes, but it's a continuation of the franchise which would not be otherwise.
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Old April 26 2014, 10:38 AM   #42
Warped9
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Re: A TOS resurgence?

^^ I've already acknowledged my tastes are irrelevant in regards to the added attention JJtrek brought to TOS. What else do you want? An apology? I think the films are shit, but that's irrelevant to their effect. So I have nothing to apologize for.

What I steadfastly dispute is JJtrek saved the franchise. That is patent bullshit because lots of Trek tie-ins were still being produced and sold and most particularly TOS stuff. That means there already existed a healthy interest in Trek before JJ came along.
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Old April 26 2014, 11:21 AM   #43
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: A TOS resurgence?

I guess we're defining "healthy" very differently. Firefly has merchandise and comics, yet with no Serenity sequel on the horizon I wouldn't say there is a healthy franchise there. The interest won't last.
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Old April 26 2014, 12:24 PM   #44
Bixby
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Re: A TOS resurgence?

Sherlock Holmes has a movie maybe once every 20 years. It seems to be doing ok nevertheless...
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Old April 26 2014, 12:35 PM   #45
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Re: A TOS resurgence?

Bixby wrote: View Post
Sherlock Holmes has a movie maybe once every 20 years. It seems to be doing ok nevertheless...
There's been two major American motion pictures, an American TV series and a British TV series all made in the last five-six years.
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