RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,608
Posts: 5,425,657
Members: 24,807
Currently online: 605
Newest member: Dixonn

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing December Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Sep 17

September Loot Crate Features Trek Surprise
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

USS Enterprise Miniature Out For Refit
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Comic Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Trek 3 Shooting Next Spring?
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 4 2014, 08:20 PM   #1
albion432
Lieutenant
 
Location: New Orleans, LA
Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

If Abrams has proven anything it's that Star Trek is here to stay. Now that Paramount knows Star Trek will sell tickets regardless of the cast, and once this reboot runs its course, we should expect to see other reboots in the future.

Just as 1980's British series Robin of Sherwood effectively added new elements to the Robin Hood legend which have endured in every version of Robin Hood since, so too has Abrams' movies introduced new elements to TOS's lore.

Anyone care to speculate on which changes they think are likely to survive into future versions of Star Trek, and which are likely to go the way of the dodo bird? For example, the Spock/Uhura relationship, should it stay or should it go?

(I wasn't sure if I should post this thread here or over in the Star Trek Movies XI+ section. I decided to post it here because the topic seemed to me to be more about TOS lore in general than about the new movies.)
albion432 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2014, 08:26 PM   #2
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

The changes are really in regards to the Abrams movies. As far as TOS is concerned, all that stuff happened in another reality.
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2014, 08:50 PM   #3
albion432
Lieutenant
 
Location: New Orleans, LA
Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
The changes are really in regards to the Abrams movies. As far as TOS is concerned, all that stuff happened in another reality.
True, however, future reboots may not be set in Abrams alternate universe. The next reboot may be billed as "a return to Star Trek's roots". However, since we cannot undo what has been done by Abrams, no matter how much we may want to, the next version will undoubtedly be, to one degree or another, a synthesis of of the original series and Abrams reboot, that's just how things go. You know, Hegel's triad and all that; thesis, antithesis, and synthesis.

I figured we TOS fans would be more likely to have a working knowledge of both Star Trek's, where those who are into the new ones probably don't know too much about the original. So I posted the thread here.
albion432 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2014, 08:55 PM   #4
Kevman7987
Commander
 
Kevman7987's Avatar
 
Location: Erie, PA, USA
View Kevman7987's Twitter Profile
Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

I just hope that the next reboot is a 100% reboot that just starts by saying; "IN A COMPLETELY ALTERNATE UNIVERSE TO PRE-ESTABLISHED CANON..."
__________________
"Don't do it, Meat!"
"Don't do it, Cheese!"
Kevman7987 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2014, 08:59 PM   #5
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

albion432 wrote: View Post
...we should expect to see other reboots in the future.

Just as 1980's British series Robin of Sherwood effectively added new elements to the Robin Hood legend which have endured in every version of Robin Hood since, so too has Abrams' movies introduced new elements to TOS's lore.

Anyone care to speculate on which changes they think are likely to survive into future versions of Star Trek, and which are likely to go the way of the dodo bird? For example, the Spock/Uhura relationship, should it stay or should it go?
Interesting question. I think it's natural for ideas from various iterations of a series to accrete onto the mythos over time. For instance, the '40s Batman serials introduced the Batcave and skinny Alfred (replacing the chubby, comic-relief Alfred of previous comics); the '60s TV series introduced Mr. Freeze (he'd been Mr. Zero before) and sort of introduced the Barbara Gordon Batgirl (in that the show's producers asked the comic's makers to create the character so she could be adapted to the screen); the Burton films introduced a retro/Gothic aesthetic; Batman: The Animated Series introduced Harley Quinn and Renee Montoya; and the Nolan films elevated Lucius Fox to a more central role that's been emulated by other adaptations.

And we've already seen such an accretion with TOS over time. Kirk's middle name Tiberius and Amanda's surname Grayson weren't established until the animated series. The modern image of Jim Kirk as a hotheaded renegade who routinely ignores orders has very little precedent in TOS (the only time he openly defied direct orders was in "Amok Time"), and comes mainly from The Search for Spock. And Scotty was never called a "miracle worker" until that same movie, but he's been called that in subsequent screen appearances, and multiple tie-in books and comics have retconned its use into the TOS era. And of course there are things like the Klingon makeup and language that were introduced in the original movies and have been adopted in all subsequent Trek productions including the Abramsverse.

So I'm sure that some of the most memorable or iconic elements from the Abrams films will resonate in people's minds in decades to come and influence later reboots/reinventions. I think it's a reasonable conjecture that the movies' characterization of Uhura (including but not limited to her relationship with Spock) will influence future adaptations of the character, if only because she was given so little personality before. By the same token, the movies' portrayals of Sulu and Chekov, and maybe its more comedic Scotty, might have an impact on future adaptations. Their elevation of Pike to a mentor role for Kirk might be echoed later as well. I think Bruce Greenwood's Pike was more likeable and memorable than Jeffrey Hunter's, so I'd expect him to resonate with future generations of fans and creators.

Possibly the tattooed appearance of the movie Romulans will carry forward into later adaptations. I certainly like it better than the TNG-style forehead ridges, which were rather ugly and never really made sense given that the Romulans only diverged from the Vulcans 2000 years ago, a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms.

Otherwise, it's hard to say. Most of the stuff in these movies is itself adapted from earlier works, so it's hard to think of that many things that count as original. The Kelvin? Robau? Keenser? Transwarp beaming?


Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
I just hope that the next reboot is a 100% reboot that just starts by saying; "IN A COMPLETELY ALTERNATE UNIVERSE TO PRE-ESTABLISHED CANON..."
That phrase would be utterly meaningless to the vast majority of moviegoers who are just there to be entertained. And those few of us who care about words like "canon" would surely already know what universe the film was in months before we went to see it.

But yeah, I agree that a wholesale restart would be better. There are a lot of concepts in Trek that are mired in the '60s, if not the '40s pulps that inspired TOS, and that are increasingly outdated in this day and age, let alone the years ahead. Our smartphones make Kirk's commuicator look like a joke. And it's no longer realistic to expect things like nanotechnology and transhumanism to be limited to bad-guy groups like Borg and Augments. Plus it would be nice to see the Federation portrayed in a way that wasn't so overwhelmingly Eurocentric, or to see the TOS cast reworked with a bit more diversity (say, a black McCoy and a female Sulu, perhaps -- or, heck, why not a female Kirk?).
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2014, 09:14 PM   #6
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

albion432 wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
The changes are really in regards to the Abrams movies. As far as TOS is concerned, all that stuff happened in another reality.
True, however, future reboots may not be set in Abrams alternate universe. The next reboot may be billed as "a return to Star Trek's roots". However, since we cannot undo what has been done by Abrams, no matter how much we may want to, the next version will undoubtedly be, to one degree or another, a synthesis of of the original series and Abrams reboot, that's just how things go. You know, Hegel's triad and all that; thesis, antithesis, and synthesis.

I figured we TOS fans would be more likely to have a working knowledge of both Star Trek's, where those who are into the new ones probably don't know too much about the original. So I posted the thread here.
In that sense, any potential future reboot of TOS will be dependent on whoever is in charge of it and what particular spin they want to put on it. It's conceivable that someone else may ditch the whole Spock and Uhura thing and go Spock and Chapel, or perhaps make Kirk and Uhura a couple instead (just as a few examples--it's even possible that someone else may decide not to have any 'shipping' going on among the big 7 at all).

I think it's more likely that stuff from the Abrams films will be incorporated into the next reboot if whoever comes next wants to build on it rather than go another route.
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2014, 09:19 PM   #7
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Probably the idea that the Enterprise crew came together in a time of crisis. And Uhura having a much more prominent role than in TOS.

I'd mention the idea that the crew attended the academy together, but that almost came to light in the early 90's with Star Trek: The Academy Years and isn't an invention of the '09 reboot.

EDIT: And probably the idea that Khan is Star Trek's version of The Joker or Moriarty, an arch nemesis for Kirk and crew.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3

Last edited by King Daniel Into Darkness; May 4 2014 at 09:40 PM.
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2014, 09:30 PM   #8
CrazyMatt
Commander
 
CrazyMatt's Avatar
 
Location: Paradise
Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

albion432 wrote: View Post
If Abrams has proven anything it's that Star Trek is here to stay. Now that Paramount knows Star Trek will sell tickets regardless of the cast, and once this reboot runs its course, we should expect to see other reboots in the future.

Just as 1980's British series Robin of Sherwood effectively added new elements to the Robin Hood legend which have endured in every version of Robin Hood since, so too has Abrams' movies introduced new elements to TOS's lore.

Anyone care to speculate on which changes they think are likely to survive into future versions of Star Trek, and which are likely to go the way of the dodo bird? For example, the Spock/Uhura relationship, should it stay or should it go?

(I wasn't sure if I should post this thread here or over in the Star Trek Movies XI+ section. I decided to post it here because the topic seemed to me to be more about TOS lore in general than about the new movies.)
No way. For me, canon matters and I consider Star Trek canon ended with the end of "Enterprise."

I don't watch the Abrams version and I never will. I know it exists, but I choose to ignore it. Star Trek in it's original incarnation was just fine. If it's good for you, great. Enjoy it. But to me, it as meaningless as urinating up in the air and then saying "it's raining."
__________________
"You are speaking to a senior officer, Kirk!"
CrazyMatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2014, 03:44 AM   #9
albion432
Lieutenant
 
Location: New Orleans, LA
Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

CrazyMatt wrote: View Post
No way. For me, canon matters and I consider Star Trek canon ended with the end of "Enterprise."

I don't watch the Abrams version and I never will. I know it exists, but I choose to ignore it. Star Trek in it's original incarnation was just fine. If it's good for you, great. Enjoy it. But to me, it as meaningless as urinating up in the air and then saying "it's raining."
My initial reaction to Abrams version was, and I quote, "I hated every fucking frame of that movie." Upon leaving the theater one of my friends commented, "You look like someone just shot your dog!" Oh I was pissed. Since then I've mellowed towards it. What helped me to put things into perspective was the review Mr. Plinkett's gave it. I would really recommend watching it, if for nothing more than the fact you will laugh your ass off, guaranteed. This is some funny stuff. I found once I was able to have a good laugh about the whole mess, I felt better about it. I even enjoyed the second movie, in a way, and to a certain extent. I just saw it as a filmed version of one of those bad Star Trek Key comics from the early 70's. Anyway, here's a link to the review:
http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/s.../star-trek-09/
I couldn't find it on youtube for some reason, but this is from the video's official site. Enjoy!
albion432 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2014, 04:07 AM   #10
HIjol
Fleet Captain
 
HIjol's Avatar
 
Location: Currently U.A.E (a lot like Tatooine!)
Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

albion432 wrote: View Post
.

Anyone care to speculate on which changes they think are likely to survive into future versions of Star Trek, and which are likely to go the way of the dodo bird? For example, the Spock/Uhura relationship, should it stay or should it go?
...here are my thoughts regarding Albion's post question:

...I cannot see a Star Trek without an Enterprise

...neither could I imagine a Star Trek
without a Kirk/McCoy/Spock/Scotty team

...long missions, not day trips or one-out-one-in flights

...no bizzare departures from the original music

...tell DeLancie to stop aging NOW!...we are going
to need him for the next 5 or 6 iterations

...NO Spock/Uhura romances...ever...neverever

__________________
"If man is to survive, he will delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear" Gene Roddenberry
HIjol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2014, 04:16 AM   #11
albion432
Lieutenant
 
Location: New Orleans, LA
Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Probably the idea that the Enterprise crew came together in a time of crisis. And Uhura having a much more prominent role than in TOS.
I like the idea of the crew coming together in a time of crisis, that would definitely up the tension level. Speaking of Uhura's prominence, it's interesting how she's already risen in importance in the new movies. She has effectively replaced McCoy as the third main character. She's replaced him in all the movie posters too.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I'd mention the idea that the crew attended the academy together, but that almost came to light in the early 90's with Star Trek: The Academy Years and isn't an invention of the '09 reboot.
I have always had several problem with the Star Trek: The Academy Years concept that had the main crew members attending the Academy together. Here are the main ones:
1) The ages of the main characters range over more than twenty years. During the original series, McCoy and Scotty were the oldest, both around 45 and Chekov was the youngest, around 22, with the others all somewhere in between. Does it really make sense they'd all be in the Academy together?
2) If they did all go to the Academy together, then why are their ranks so widely varied too? It makes Chekov seem like a slacker if he's only managed to rise to the level of Ensign while some of his classmates have risen to the rank of Captain in the same amount of time.
3) Spock said he had served with Pike some 13 years prior to Kirk's command of the Enterprise. Even if Spock was assigned to the Enterprise right out of the Academy, and his 13 year statement was made at the beginning of Kirk's command, that would still put his classmates Uhura and Sulu somewhere in their mid-teens, and Chekov at age 9 at the time of graduation if they all attended the Academy together. While at the same time, Scott and McCoy would be in their early 30's at graduation.

There are several other issues I have with the concept, but I don't feel the need to beat a dead horse here.

EDIT: And probably the idea that Khan is Star Trek's version of The Joker or Moriarty, an arch nemesis for Kirk and crew.[/QUOTE]

That would be interesting. Would you have Khan roaming around using the Relient as a pirate ship of sorts?
albion432 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2014, 07:16 AM   #12
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

CrazyMatt wrote: View Post

No way. For me, canon matters and I consider Star Trek canon ended with the end of "Enterprise."
Nah. That particular "canon" ended, but there's no rule that says you can't start another "canon" . . . and another one a generation later. There's always room for a new variation on an old favorite. None of this stuff is set in stone.

You might just as well pretend that no more Tarzan movies were made after the Johnny Weismuller series ended . . . or that no Frankenstein movie made after 1948 is "canon."

Getting back OT, the Khan/Moriarity thing sounds plausible. Moriarity only made one or two appearances in the original Conan Doyle "canon." It was subsequent retellings that built him up into a major recurring character. (Ditto Irene Adler.)

I can see Khan going the same route . . . and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the Borg turn up in some future iteration of TOS. They're too popular to leave on the shelf for long.
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2014, 08:19 AM   #13
AustNerevar
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Talos IV
Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

[QUOTE=Greg Cox;9546754]
CrazyMatt wrote: View Post
I can see Khan going the same route . . . and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the Borg turn up in some future iteration of TOS. They're too popular to leave on the shelf for long.
Do we even have an idea on whether or not there will be anymore Abramsverse content? I mean, I figured that was dead, now. It's kind of a shame, even given my disappointment with STiD. Two movies and the universe is dead.
AustNerevar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2014, 08:57 AM   #14
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

AustNerevar wrote: View Post
Do we even have an idea on whether or not there will be anymore Abramsverse content? I mean, I figured that was dead, now. It's kind of a shame, even given my disappointment with STiD. Two movies and the universe is dead.
The cast was contracted for three movies, so there will be another film after STID. Once that movie debuts, several things can happen. The cast can be given another contract for more films, CBS may decide they want to produce a TV series (and with all of the sets, props, costumes, models, etc. from the Abrams films, it's highly likely the new show will be set in the same universe), they may produce an animated series, or they may make a webseries. It's entirely up to CBS what they want to do. But I'll tell you this: Star Trek makes money, and they're not going to let it die, so I wouldn't worry about that.
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2014, 09:03 AM   #15
Skywalker
Admiral
 
Skywalker's Avatar
 
Re: Are the changes to TOS lore here to stay?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
AustNerevar wrote: View Post
Do we even have an idea on whether or not there will be anymore Abramsverse content? I mean, I figured that was dead, now. It's kind of a shame, even given my disappointment with STiD. Two movies and the universe is dead.
The cast was contracted for three movies, so there will be another film after STID. Once that movie debuts, several things can happen. The cast can be given another contract for more films, CBS may decide they want to produce a TV series (and with all of the sets, props, costumes, models, etc. from the Abrams films, it's highly likely the new show will be set in the same universe), they may produce an animated series, or they may make a webseries. It's entirely up to CBS what they want to do. But I'll tell you this: Star Trek makes money, and they're not going to let it die, so I wouldn't worry about that.
CBS has nothing to do with the Abrams films. Paramount owns the Star Trek movie rights and CBS owns the TV rights. If CBS decided to do a new Trek series, they'd have to do their own thing (or maybe work out some sort of licensing agreement with Paramount if they want to set it in the Abramsverse).
Skywalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:27 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.