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Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

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Old May 6 2014, 03:52 PM   #91
JarodRussell
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

T'Girl wrote: View Post
That's what is called taking a position. Regardless if you agree with the position taken.
And regardless if that position is right.


Religion guys can take positions all they want. Science guys don't do that.

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Old May 6 2014, 03:53 PM   #92
Robert Maxwell
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Yminale wrote: View Post
But these same people have no problem with where God came from.
If you were to say that the matter and energy was alway there (like God) and that the universe has expanded and contracted in a endless series of big bangs, that would one theory.

Or, that the matter and energy was (somehow) created in the big bang and never existed before, that would be another theory.

But there's no consensus at this time, and this is a hole in the theory. Come on science guys, take a position.

Monotheists hold that God was alway there and didn't "come from" somewhere. Also that the matter and energy that is the universe was created in a supernatural event.

That's what is called taking a position. Regardless if you agree with the position taken.

Your turn, where did the big bang "come from?"

Science doesn't pretend to know this because it may well be impossible to know. The laws of physics as we know them didn't take hold until sometime after the Big Bang. Is it possible matter was being created out of nothing? Sure. Is it possible our universe is only the latest iteration in an endless cycle of bang-crunch-bang-crunch? Maybe. Do we have any way of confirming either? Not currently, and possibly not ever.

What I find deeply fallacious is the implication that, because science doesn't have all the answers, religion must fill in the gaps. Substituting a lack of knowledge with nonsense isn't enlightened, it's foolish.
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Old May 6 2014, 04:32 PM   #93
YellowSubmarine
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Science doesn't pretend to know this because it may well be impossible to know. The laws of physics as we know them didn't take hold until sometime after the Big Bang. Is it possible matter was being created out of nothing? Sure. Is it possible our universe is only the latest iteration in an endless cycle of bang-crunch-bang-crunch? Maybe. Do we have any way of confirming either? Not currently, and possibly not ever.
Another thing that I thought of when I saw the poll. When walking in the park, having my random thoughts, I've sometimes wondered, what if the universe began a few moments after the Big Bang, and the Big Bang itself never happened? That's just how these laws of physics in flux irk me, even though I know it's still the best possible explanation of what we know.

Obviously, I would reason against that as time passes, but if an interviewer bumped into me and asked me mid-thought, I'd say, dude, that Big Bang thing, don't I doubt it, I doubt it more than I've ever had!
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Old May 6 2014, 04:39 PM   #94
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

Metryq wrote: View Post
Mainstream cosmologists have already taken a definitive a stance, stubbornly wedded to their dogma in spite of overwhelming falsification of the Big Bang at all levels. "Believing is seeing."
I'm probably going to regret this but... what are you talking about?
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Old May 6 2014, 06:44 PM   #95
Robert Comsol
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
What I find deeply fallacious is the implication that, because science doesn't have all the answers, religion must fill in the gaps. Substituting a lack of knowledge with nonsense isn't enlightened, it's foolish.
Based on historic precedence I agree. Yet, I would like to see "science" to come up with a feasible theory regarding "dark" "matter".

IIRC, the astrophysic community started to look into the issue in the early 1970's but lately I haven't heard a lot of progress and apparently it's one of the issues Hawking doesn't really like to talk about.

Maybe Lucas was right when he had a Catholic actor state in 1976 that it's the Force that "holds the galaxy together"

Bob
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Old May 6 2014, 06:50 PM   #96
Stoo
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

What's "with" the random "quote" "marks".
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Old May 6 2014, 07:28 PM   #97
YellowSubmarine
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

Stoo wrote: View Post
What's "with" the random "quote" "marks".
Scare quotes, n: A rhetorical device used to "discredit" notions that are well-supported by evidence, overwhelmingly accepted, but the writer nonetheless feels they are wrong.

Example usage: The Midwest has a thing or two to say about "global warming" this year. But what would you expect from the same people that told us that smoking "kills" and that we have "landed" on the Moon? Remember, none of the "astronauts" who have been to the "Moon", no doubt situated somewhere in Hollywood, had been able to explain how there were no stars in the "sky".
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Old May 7 2014, 04:18 PM   #98
Robert Comsol
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

YellowSubmarine wrote: View Post
Stoo wrote: View Post
What's "with" the random "quote" "marks".
Scare quotes, n: A rhetorical device used to "discredit" notions that are well-supported by evidence, overwhelmingly accepted, but the writer nonetheless feels they are wrong.
What evidence, please enlighten me.

To my knowledge all that has been observed is an effect that somehow needed to be put in words.

Already and in Star Trek the "dark" has given birth to confusion (in one episode the writers misunderstood and thought that the "dark" was referring to gases and cosmic dust shielding the lights of stars on the other side).

"Dark" in this context refers to "invisible"

Whether it is some kind of "matter" is equally conjectural (is it matter or energy?), as it obviously has no characteristics of usual matter, antimatter or negative matter.

The latter one would be better suited to describe the effect of "dark energy" (i.e. "dark negative matter") with "dark energy" being a more suitable candidate for what we usually refer to as "dark matter", IMHO.

It currently remains rather enigmatic.

Bob
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Old May 7 2014, 04:49 PM   #99
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

The smell of my socks is also very enigmatic, because nobody has lived after trying to smell them to tell about it, yet I fail to think of one person who took that as evidence they didn't smell. When you repeatedly observe something whose properties aren't that of the things you're familiar with, your conclusion is usually not "nah, it is not there, it is just not there", but rather "what is that?" Aside from being a very strong prediction by leading physical theories, dark matter clouds have been successfully mapped through gravitational lensing, which is significant enough confirmation, and a very good reason to stop wasting our time in arguing it's not there unless new strong evidence comes against what's presently known.

Having difficulty in ascertaining the physical nature of something doesn't make it go away. Being surrounded by enigmatic things we don't know the nature of? I think that's called "the story of the human civilization".
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Old May 7 2014, 06:30 PM   #100
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

I thought I made it clear that I have issues with the lack of "evidence" that it is "dark" and "matter", not the actual phenomenon itself.

Bob
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Old May 7 2014, 06:37 PM   #101
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

While I do not believe the Earth is 6000 years old, I also have a hard time beliving everything came from nothing in direct violation of all the laws of physics as we know them.
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Old May 7 2014, 06:42 PM   #102
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

Yanks wrote: View Post
While I do not believe the Earth is 6000 years old, I also have a hard time beliving everything came from nothing in direct violation of all the laws of physics as we know them.
The other option is that it always existed (in some form or another), which is just as difficult for me to wrap my head around.
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Old May 7 2014, 06:49 PM   #103
Yanks
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
That's what is called taking a position. Regardless if you agree with the position taken.
And regardless if that position is right.


Religion guys can take positions all they want. Science guys don't do that.

You post that in a thread demeaning Americans because they don't believe in the Big Bang?
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Old May 7 2014, 06:52 PM   #104
Yanks
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
While I do not believe the Earth is 6000 years old, I also have a hard time beliving everything came from nothing in direct violation of all the laws of physics as we know them.
The other option is that it always existed (in some form or another), which is just as difficult for me to wrap my head around.
True.

It's kind of like "that galaxy is 13.8 blah blah years old. We know that because that's how long it took the light to get here" with no regard to how the galaxy got there in the first place.
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Old May 7 2014, 10:05 PM   #105
Dennis
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

Yanks wrote: View Post
While I do not believe the Earth is 6000 years old, I also have a hard time beliving everything came from nothing in direct violation of all the laws of physics as we know them.
The laws of physics do not obtain before the beginning of the Universe.

Everything is nothing, anyway.
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