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Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

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Old May 12 2014, 02:25 AM   #136
gturner
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

Actually, the "apple" was as close as the original Hebrew could come to "an Apple®". What the passage originally meant was that Eve bought an iPad or iPhone and gave it to Adam, who started surfing the web for pr0n.
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Old May 12 2014, 02:38 AM   #137
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

^God was Steve Ballmer, who threw a chair, then threw Adam and Eve out.
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Old May 12 2014, 07:55 PM   #138
Timelord Victorious
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

gturner wrote: View Post
Actually, the "apple" was as close as the original Hebrew could come to "an Apple®". What the passage originally meant was that Eve bought an iPad or iPhone and gave it to Adam, who started surfing the web for pr0n.
Did Eden have unlimited broadband coverage?

Also, since the two were the only people around, does that mean he watched p0rn of themselves? XD
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Old May 12 2014, 09:34 PM   #139
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

Timelord Victorious wrote: View Post
Also, since the two were the only people around, does that mean he watched p0rn of themselves? XD
No, Adam would show Eve videos of his first wife, Lilith, who was reputed to be a real demon in bed.
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Old May 13 2014, 04:47 AM   #140
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

Metryq wrote: View Post
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Thing is, teh Big Bang Theory (while proably labeled in an unfortunate way) is making predictions about the universe and so far all those predictions we can actually test have been confirmed.
Right, that would be why the theory is patched—with inflation, dark matter, dark energy, etc.—every time a new observation comes in. Its track record for prediction has been very poor.

latest evidence is that polarized light by gravity waves ting. not sure I understand that one yet.

Walk me through this, Metryq. Are you saying that the polarization data finally gives us a useful way of isolating the background from foreground signals in the WMAP data, or are you implying that the polarization thing is yet another straw being grasped by the cosmologists who just spent $20 billion on a series of ultra-high tech science experiments and need something to show for it before they get lynched?
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Old May 13 2014, 11:34 AM   #141
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

^ The latter. Robitaille explained how one probe was not properly insulated. And there are problems with the "blackbody" reference.

gives us a useful way of isolating the background from foreground signals
Watch the video again. The data was tweaked to give the desired maps. Robitaille explained that it is impossible to extract a signal from noise that is a thousand times more intense, unless either 1) one has a priori knowledge of the signal, or 2) one has some way of manipulating the signal. We see this same problem in all the conjecture about the internal structure of the Sun. Except for the dark "holes" of sunspots, we cannot see below the photosphere.

Lots of NASA press releases talk about "helio-seismology" which is impossible without item two above. We cannot ping the Sun; all we can do is listen to its burps and rumbles. Suppose you're facing a door or wall and want to know whether it is solidly built, or hollow. You are not allowed to touch or rap on the surface. All you can do is look at it.

How about item one? That can best be summed up as "believing is seeing." The alleged CMB is only one tiny aspect of the Big Bang, a theory that has more evidence against it than for it. On more than one occasion I've seen professional astrophysicists in documentaries or quoted in books as saying, "I know the Big Bang is fatally flawed, but I will stick with it anyway because there is no alternative." How's that for scientific?

I guess this makes me a creationist, since I don't "believe" in the Big Bang, a theory originally proposed by a priest. (In logic, this fallacy is known as a false dichotomy; it must be either-or, black or white, as though no other possibilities exist.)
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Old May 13 2014, 12:38 PM   #142
Yanks
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

Metryq wrote: View Post
^ The latter. Robitaille explained how one probe was not properly insulated. And there are problems with the "blackbody" reference.

gives us a useful way of isolating the background from foreground signals
Watch the video again. The data was tweaked to give the desired maps. Robitaille explained that it is impossible to extract a signal from noise that is a thousand times more intense, unless either 1) one has a priori knowledge of the signal, or 2) one has some way of manipulating the signal. We see this same problem in all the conjecture about the internal structure of the Sun. Except for the dark "holes" of sunspots, we cannot see below the photosphere.

Lots of NASA press releases talk about "helio-seismology" which is impossible without item two above. We cannot ping the Sun; all we can do is listen to its burps and rumbles. Suppose you're facing a door or wall and want to know whether it is solidly built, or hollow. You are not allowed to touch or rap on the surface. All you can do is look at it.

How about item one? That can best be summed up as "believing is seeing." The alleged CMB is only one tiny aspect of the Big Bang, a theory that has more evidence against it than for it. On more than one occasion I've seen professional astrophysicists in documentaries or quoted in books as saying, "I know the Big Bang is fatally flawed, but I will stick with it anyway because there is no alternative." How's that for scientific?
I've watched the videos. I don't see how Robitaille is incorrect in either. I find this more than a little disturbing.

I guess this makes me a creationist, since I don't "believe" in the Big Bang, a theory originally proposed by a priest. (In logic, this fallacy is known as a false dichotomy; it must be either-or, black or white, as though no other possibilities exist.)
It's sad as if one does not "conform" to the theory, they are placed in a camp. Pretty telling as well.
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Old May 13 2014, 05:44 PM   #143
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

Metryq wrote: View Post
Watch the video again. The data was tweaked to give the desired maps.
Yes, I caught that. What I'm wondering is whether or not the polarization of cosmic light is significantly different from foreground galactic sources, and if so, can that be used to tease out the background signal by filtering against polarity. My guess is, probably not.

Robitaille explained that it is impossible to extract a signal from noise that is a thousand times more intense, unless either 1) one has a priori knowledge of the signal, or 2) one has some way of manipulating the signal. We see this same problem in all the conjecture about the internal structure of the Sun. Except for the dark "holes" of sunspots, we cannot see below the photosphere.
Yes, I know all of that. Cosmology and astrophysics both have a track record of making incredibly far-reaching and specific claims from very ambiguous data. But a uniform shift in polarity from the CMB would be something highly unambiguous that would be pretty solid data, IF that's what they're actually seeing.

Doesn't sound like it, though. It sounds like they are, as usual, proceeding from some incredibly specific and elaborate assumptions about the early universe and then reinterpreting/reprocessing the data to fit those assumptions. I could be wrong, though, which is mainly why I asked.

I guess this makes me a creationist
Or a steady-state cosmologist. They do have them, you know.
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Old May 13 2014, 06:59 PM   #144
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Or a steady-state cosmologist. They do have them, you know.
They do, indeed. There are many cosmologies that fit within the classification "steady-state." Likewise, it is not The Big Bang; there are several Big Bang models that differ from each other significantly, although the general public would never know that. All those animations can't be wrong.
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Old May 17 2014, 07:02 PM   #145
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

There are two points I would like to make.

First, the problem is that the education system is a joke. Not only is the Scientific Method is not even taught correctly, if at all, but critical thinking has been replaced with social promotion and political indoctrination. We are no longer taught how to think, but what to think, with the goal of never questioning those in a position of authority. So how can the Big Bang Theory, the Theory of Evolution, et al, when the average American don't even know the make-up of the three branches of government?

Second, I have no clue why there is antagonism between Science and Theology. It seems like those people who promote Science over Theology mask their personal greivences towards religion in the name of enlightenment, when scientists, up until the 19th century saw the pursuit of science as a way of studying the 'hand of God', which is why they saw themselves as Deists than Christian. Besides, if Man can create life, who is to say that someone or something didn't create Man?

Ultimately, regardless of your opinion on this matter, we all should agree that the pursuit of science and technology should spark the imagination, least the mundane prevent us from discovering new ways to make life better for all.
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Old May 17 2014, 07:57 PM   #146
MacLeod
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

^I think you are perhaps under valunig the average American when you say they don't know what their branches of Government are, Executive, Legislative and Judicial to answer the question. Or are you saying I as a Brit have a better understanding of how the US Government works than the average American?

And isn't part of the debate not about science vs theology but what should be taught in Science Lessons? Someone wants to put forward another idea about the creation of the Universe, Life etc.. Fine prove it.
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Old May 18 2014, 01:00 AM   #147
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

MacLeod wrote: View Post
^I think you are perhaps under valunig the average American when you say they don't know what their branches of Government are, Executive, Legislative and Judicial to answer the question. Or are you saying I as a Brit have a better understanding of how the US Government works than the average American?

And isn't part of the debate not about science vs theology but what should be taught in Science Lessons? Someone wants to put forward another idea about the creation of the Universe, Life etc.. Fine prove it.
1) Take a look at the statistics on the state of education in the US. Trust me, it is banal.

2) Here is where I stand, as a person of faith, based on something that Thomas Jefferson once said: "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.” For me, religious or not, a person of reason should always be skeptical of orthodoxy, no matter what. As far as I am concerned, if what you believe in or embrace, cannot withstand the scrutiny of either rational or empirical, then those ideas should not be taken seriously. For me, I see no antagonism between science and theology (or with philosophy, for that matter), since these disciplines (for lack of a better term) seek to remove humanity from the muck that is our base human nature. Unfortunately, as history has proven, even the best of intentions can be fraught with opportunists who seek power to control others.
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Old May 18 2014, 01:03 AM   #148
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

If there is a god that created the universe, he also created the laws of nature after which the universe works. He invented math, defined all forces, etc... I wonder why religious fundamentalists are afraid of the thought of understanding those laws their god created.
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Old May 18 2014, 02:33 AM   #149
Metryq
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
He invented math
All due respect to Kepler, but Man invented math. It is a language, a precision tool, but it is not "truth."
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Old May 18 2014, 02:39 AM   #150
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Re: 51% of Americans don't accept the Big Bang theory

Metryq wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
He invented math
All due respect to Kepler, but Man invented math. It is a language, a precision tool, but it is not "truth."
It's the reverse engineered language of nature. If a god exists, he defined it. Addition, multiplication, prime numbers, rings, groups, etc...

You have to keep in mind that if a god created the universe, he did so from scratch. Math then works the way it does because a god made up these rules.

It's impossible for us to imagine a universe where, for example, 1+1 != 2, but that's because we are "trapped" in this specific one.
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