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Old April 23 2014, 01:00 AM   #61
Alidar Jarok
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Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

Yminale wrote: View Post
That's assuming that Jor-EL knew that Superman had a way to access both Jor-El's program and the codex. There is no evidence that Jor-El knew there was a seed ship on Earth. That was an accident (which allowed Zod to find Earth in the first place).
I thought it was explicitly stated (it's also why he wanted to send him to one of the old outposts). If Jor-El didn't know the seed ship was on Earth, how was Kal supposed to see his message?
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Old April 23 2014, 01:21 AM   #62
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Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

theenglish wrote: View Post
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While I hesitate to give the Avengers too much praise, the final action scene in that film was really well done, for what it was. It was built up well for most of the film. Instead of it being two supermen fighting and not caring about the massive amounts of collateral damage, it was a half dozen heroes that had to work together, each offering some unique way to contribute talents. It also was bright and colorful and really looked and felt like a comic book. There was a progression to the fight. Each character got involved in their own unique way, an eventually they had to figure out how to deal with the threat. Man of Steel's fight seemed long, tedious, repetitive, humorless, boring, shallow, preachy and all of that. As well as dull, and colorless, and it felt like the stakes were less important than its own showiness. The Avengers took time to save people from what was happening. Superman in the original films spent more time saving people than actually engaging Zod and his cronies. Man of Steel's fight seemed, endless, excessive, and utterly pointless. That's why the minutes dragged and dragged, because it was all listless and there was nothing to hook the audience after the initial minute or two of seeing two Supermen duking it out.
This. You expressed it much better than me.
You did a great job expressing this. Many Marvel movies have done a great job translating the characters to the "real world" and making them work.
thanks!
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Old April 23 2014, 04:37 AM   #63
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Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

theenglish wrote: View Post
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The length of action scenes is utterly beside the point, because a well-constructed and well-paced action scene will never feel its length, while a tedious and dull one will feel twice as long (if not longer.)

The final action sequence in MOS, to me, felt very long and overdone. The prior action scenes were fine, in my opinion. It was just the final fight with Zod that seemed to go on far too long.
People complain about the length of the action scenes. So there is a point to be made there.

That's the trick I suppose. How do you make an action scene with super strong and invincible people interesting? It's a needle that MOS didn't thread very well, but even in the comics, the fight scenes between megaton characters doesn't mesh well. There is only a victor when one of the combatant is irrefutably stronger than his opponent.

I was quite satisfied that they showed Superman was equal in terms of abilities with the other Krytponians. As opposed to doing what happens in comics and giving Superman a "plus 1" because he's the hero and her has to triumph.
Sorry, but Superman almost always thinks his way to victory. The comics often showing him facing a superior opponent that he needs to outwit or solve the mystery in order to defeat.
Which is easy to say when Superman is the strongest and most physically capable being in the conflict. However against foes like Metallo, Darkseid, Mongul, Doomsday, Brainiac, Luthor, Bizarro, and General Zod (before contriving some way to lock him up again); Superman always comes to blows or has to use force to achieve victory. Not because Superman is purely fists and muscles like Thor, but because the above enemies can cause fatal amounts of harm to Superman's person. That and character's like Brainiac and Luthor always have dozens of machines for Superman to destroy during their conflicts.
I could rattle off comics where the above conflicts have happened but I won't.

The point is nothing in MOS exists that we haven't seen in the comics. MOS translated the titanic battles we see in print to the screen with visceral and intense imagery. Like I said earlier, there is no plus one given to Superman because he's the hero. All Kryptonians are equal under the sun. There is no kryptonite in this continuity yet, so Superman can't use that. There is no red sun chamber for Superman to trick Zod and his followers in to. The phantom drive colliding with one another was Superman's victory plan in MOS. The final battle with Zod was Superman dealing with Zod after he had run out of options.
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Old April 23 2014, 07:53 PM   #64
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Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
theenglish wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post

People complain about the length of the action scenes. So there is a point to be made there.

That's the trick I suppose. How do you make an action scene with super strong and invincible people interesting? It's a needle that MOS didn't thread very well, but even in the comics, the fight scenes between megaton characters doesn't mesh well. There is only a victor when one of the combatant is irrefutably stronger than his opponent.

I was quite satisfied that they showed Superman was equal in terms of abilities with the other Krytponians. As opposed to doing what happens in comics and giving Superman a "plus 1" because he's the hero and her has to triumph.
Sorry, but Superman almost always thinks his way to victory. The comics often showing him facing a superior opponent that he needs to outwit or solve the mystery in order to defeat.
Which is easy to say when Superman is the strongest and most physically capable being in the conflict. However against foes like Metallo, Darkseid, Mongul, Doomsday, Brainiac, Luthor, Bizarro, and General Zod (before contriving some way to lock him up again); Superman always comes to blows or has to use force to achieve victory. Not because Superman is purely fists and muscles like Thor, but because the above enemies can cause fatal amounts of harm to Superman's person. That and character's like Brainiac and Luthor always have dozens of machines for Superman to destroy during their conflicts.
I could rattle off comics where the above conflicts have happened but I won't.

The point is nothing in MOS exists that we haven't seen in the comics. MOS translated the titanic battles we see in print to the screen with visceral and intense imagery. Like I said earlier, there is no plus one given to Superman because he's the hero. All Kryptonians are equal under the sun. There is no kryptonite in this continuity yet, so Superman can't use that. There is no red sun chamber for Superman to trick Zod and his followers in to. The phantom drive colliding with one another was Superman's victory plan in MOS. The final battle with Zod was Superman dealing with Zod after he had run out of options.
I'm not saying he doesn't use his powers, but what gives Superman the upper hand is almost always his ability to think his way out of the problem. He doesn't defeat those villains you mentioned just by duking it out with them--he outwits them. This was the point of the ending of Sueprman II, that Superman finds a way even against impossible odds.

Morrisons Action Comics run shows this well in a couple of places...Superman's ultimate victory in the final issue but also in issue 14 when facing the multitude--" 'There's always a way.' When the odds are impossible--do the impossible." This defines what Superman has always been in all his incarnations, but what was missing in MoS.
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Old April 23 2014, 09:14 PM   #65
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Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

I recently rewatched it as well and I still have to same problem with it. I enjoy the movie just fine but at the end, regardless of actual time, it seems to take forever. I sat through The Avengers with a big grin on my face the entire battle, but by the time Superman got around to killing Zod I was ready for it to be over well before that.
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Old April 23 2014, 09:44 PM   #66
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Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

theenglish wrote: View Post
I'm not saying he doesn't use his powers, but what gives Superman the upper hand is almost always his ability to think his way out of the problem. He doesn't defeat those villains you mentioned just by duking it out with them--he outwits them. This was the point of the ending of Sueprman II, that Superman finds a way even against impossible odds.

Morrisons Action Comics run shows this well in a couple of places...Superman's ultimate victory in the final issue but also in issue 14 when facing the multitude--" 'There's always a way.' When the odds are impossible--do the impossible." This defines what Superman has always been in all his incarnations, but what was missing in MoS.
It's funny you bring up Superman II. Because after Superman outwits Zod, he proceeds to crush a powerless Zod's hand, lifts him up and toss him in to a wall; where Zod presumably falls to his death. All this with a small smirk on his face. How is that anymore heroic than MOS choosing to end Zod's life by breaking his neck? Zod in Superman II was depowered and was essentially a threat to no one anymore. MOS Zod was an active threat and was intent on making humanity suffer by killing them all. Zod in the comics (Superman #22 1988) had killed 5 billion people and boasted he would continue killing. Superman chose to end Zod's life there also.

I'm not advocating for Superman to use lethal force willy nilly like Punisher, Spawn, Thor, Iron Man, or Wolverine. However should the need arise, I have no problem with Superman making that call. Most detractors of MOS keep vying that Superman always finds a 3rd way out. While I'm not against this. It does give the sense that Superman is given plot immunity in order to avoid making tough decisions. Writers will cherry pick the conflicts he faces in order avoid putting Superman in a no-win scenario. Kobyashi Maru anyone?


During the Koyashi Maru you are not judged by your ability to succeed but by your conduct in the face of extreme adversity. Giving Supes a way out (Kirk reprogramming the test) is plot immunity. It's having your cake and eating it too. The modern Superman is always plagued by his own inadequacies. He strives to be the greatest champion of Earth so he pushes himself harder than others. When he fails, or comes up short; he reflects that "maybe I didn't try hard enough"/"I will try harder next time". This is something that was absent from the Silver Age (infinitely powered) Superman. With unlimited strength and the ability to time travel under his own power. Silver Age Superman could save everyone every time. There is never a time when SA Supes pauses for reflection because he is so powerful.
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Old April 23 2014, 10:17 PM   #67
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Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

^^^^I don't have a problem with him killing Zod, I am just saying that he didn't "outwit" Zod.
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Old April 23 2014, 10:40 PM   #68
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Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

^ Colliding the phantom drives was Superman outwitting Zod. It's something Zod hadn't developed a contingency for.

Where I think the film loses a lot of people is the final battle. The battle to stop the World Engine and trap the Kryptonians lasts 10 minutes. It's essentially the climax of the film. However the creative team (Snyder + Goyer, maybe Nolan) didn't think the ending had the impact they wanted. So to add extra umph, they stacked a climax (Superman vs Zod) on top of a climax (stopping the World Engine). I think if the 3rd act was reworked somehow, people wouldn't have as much of an issue with the film's final stretch.
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Old April 23 2014, 10:57 PM   #69
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Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

theenglish wrote: View Post
^^^^I don't have a problem with him killing Zod, I am just saying that he didn't "outwit" Zod.
Although I did notice his newfound skills were used to his advantage. Unlike Zod, Superman figured out how to fly. That meant Zod could use heat vision to destroy Superman's ground and Superman could just float above it. I liked that he seemed more at ease in the battle (while still fighting an extremely difficult opponent). Compared to the earlier fight, he now knew what he was doing.
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Old April 24 2014, 12:01 AM   #70
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Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
^ Colliding the phantom drives was Superman outwitting Zod. It's something Zod hadn't developed a contingency for.

Where I think the film loses a lot of people is the final battle. The battle to stop the World Engine and trap the Kryptonians lasts 10 minutes. It's essentially the climax of the film. However the creative team (Snyder + Goyer, maybe Nolan) didn't think the ending had the impact they wanted. So to add extra umph, they stacked a climax (Superman vs Zod) on top of a climax (stopping the World Engine). I think if the 3rd act was reworked somehow, people wouldn't have as much of an issue with the film's final stretch.
Yes, this is true. I want to stress that I really enjoyed the movie--it was just the final slugfest that I had a problem with for various reasons.
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Old April 24 2014, 01:35 AM   #71
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Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

In the MOS final battle, I don't remember any levity that would have relieved some of the tension, at least for a second or two. Those moments may have been there, but I don't remember them. Avengers had several of those little moments, a line here and there, that allowed the audience to laugh and catch their breath.

I walked out of MOS feeling drained.
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Old April 24 2014, 02:44 AM   #72
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Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

Man of Steel was definitely going for a bleaker and darker and "grittier" (snicker) tone than The Avengers was. The final battle wasn't supposed to be fun, it was supposed to be the end of the world. A desperate situation where our hero is utterly outmatched with no chance of winning and is forced to do something that will haunt him to the end of his days.
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Old April 24 2014, 02:49 AM   #73
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Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

But Superman is supposed to be the character of hope, and the script should be written to let us feel that way
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Old April 24 2014, 02:58 AM   #74
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Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

I agree that Superman should be a hopeful and optimistic character. In the context of this particular movie I think it made logical sense. Hopefully the sequel will be a little more positive (minus the angsting over killing Zod) as Supes becomes more experienced and joins a league of justice.
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Old April 24 2014, 03:04 AM   #75
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Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

Mr Light wrote: View Post
I agree that Superman should be a hopeful and optimistic character. In the context of this particular movie I think it made logical sense. Hopefully the sequel will be a little more positive (minus the angsting over killing Zod) as Supes becomes more experienced and joins a league of justice.
Superman is a difficult character to write for but the makers of the older films embraced every quality he was supposed to have, and Reeve could play the boy-scoutish character quite well.
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