RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,698
Posts: 5,431,280
Members: 24,830
Currently online: 434
Newest member: honeybadger


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 21 2014, 09:29 PM   #16
Locutus of Bored
A Certain Point of View
 
Locutus of Bored's Avatar
 
Location: The Force
Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

Forbin wrote: View Post
... and the rest, outside of the "vast majority" (a vastly overused favorite term on the internet) was Kal's fault.

It's like if a mad gunman sprays a schoolyard and kills a dozen kids, and an armed citizen returns fire, but his stray rounds kill 6 kids too.

It's not okay.
If the mad gunman had threatened to kill all life on Earth and had a gun that could actually achieve that by altering the planetary mass and atmosphere, then that might be a valid analogy. It might also justify some more drastic and hasty tactics by Kal (though never intending harm to anyone himself) when the stakes were as high as the literal end of the world for his adopted people.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
Locutus of Bored is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 21 2014, 10:20 PM   #17
AgentCoop
Fleet Captain
 
AgentCoop's Avatar
 
Location: Chillin' in the Black Lodge since June 10th, 1991
View AgentCoop's Twitter Profile
Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

Yeah, the whole "blame Superman for the destruction caused by Zod" thing was silly from the get-go. Then it became a meme, and like all memes it became worn out and tiresome. I didn't hear anyone complaining that the Avengers caused the destruction of half of Manhattan. Besides, the level of destruction was par for the course in the comics.
AgentCoop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 21 2014, 10:26 PM   #18
BigJake
Rear Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

^ Yeah, it was equivalent to a billion other superhero urban brawl punch-ups we've seen in comic books and in other movies, just done with more visceral effects.
__________________
It's got electrolytes!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigJake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 21 2014, 11:36 PM   #19
Alidar Jarok
Everything in moderation but moderation
 
Alidar Jarok's Avatar
 
Location: Norfolk, VA
Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

I will say the writers could have shaped the story in a way so Superman could have avoided such massive destruction. I think it's apparent they chose not to. But it's also apparent from watching the story that Superman himself, as the story was portrayed, could not have done anything about it.
__________________
When on Romulus, Do as the Romulans
Alidar Jarok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 22 2014, 12:59 AM   #20
Locutus of Bored
A Certain Point of View
 
Locutus of Bored's Avatar
 
Location: The Force
Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

What's funny is, I remember for decades people have been wanting to see a Superman/superhuman brawl with the actual amount of mass destruction something like that would entail, and then when we finally get it, it's all people complain about.

There was even a Superman cartoon (I forget which) where Superman was fighting in the middle of Metropolis and buildings were collapsing around him that was highly praised at the time for finally being a Superman fight with real, measurable mass damage and consequences to it.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
Locutus of Bored is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 22 2014, 02:21 AM   #21
Anwar
Vice Admiral
 
Anwar's Avatar
 
Location: Regina, SK, Canada
Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

They did that in the JLU Cartoon, when he fought Captain Marvel.

Difference was, the whole situation made Superman out to be a Bad Guy and it was repeatedly stated that the city was totally empty.

I don't think Superman was responsible for any of the damages here though, Zod was.
Anwar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 22 2014, 04:33 AM   #22
theenglish
Rear Admiral
 
theenglish's Avatar
 
Location: Suriname
Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

I don't think the main criticism was the actual story element. I think it was the destruction porn level of the movie itself. The fight went on for a long time and there were a lot of scenes detailing the level of death and destruction in Metropolis.

This is not my personal opinion, I am just trying to summarize the discussion from the movie thread that you can search out.
theenglish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 22 2014, 05:11 AM   #23
Agenda
Fleet Captain
 
Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

This movie forgets why Superman is an iconic character and idol of millions. Jor El keeps telling him he's a symbol of hope but all you see is violence and scenes of destruction. Watching it you get the sense that humanity would be better off if he wasn't there...along with his Kryptonian pals. The final straw was at the end when takes that satellite down. No, this living alien god is not a loose canon AT ALL. Hell, if I was the US gov, I'd be on the line to Lex Luthor that night, and I'd be perfectly justified.
Agenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 22 2014, 06:13 AM   #24
AllStarEntprise
Fleet Captain
 
AllStarEntprise's Avatar
 
Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

theenglish wrote: View Post
I don't think the main criticism was the actual story element. I think it was the destruction porn level of the movie itself. The fight went on for a long time and there were a lot of scenes detailing the level of death and destruction in Metropolis.

This is not my personal opinion, I am just trying to summarize the discussion from the movie thread that you can search out.
What if I told you the action scenes in MOS were shorter than they were in Avengers?

The fight between Superman, Faora and Nam-Ek in Smallville lasts 6 minutes. The scene to stop the World Engine from the moment it is turned on, lasts 10 minutes. That includes dialogue between certain characters. The final fight between Superman and Zod last 6 minutes.
AllStarEntprise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 22 2014, 06:34 AM   #25
Ancient Mariner
Rear Admiral
 
Ancient Mariner's Avatar
 
Location: Sailing for adventure on the Big Blue Wet Thing™
View Ancient Mariner's Twitter Profile
Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
What's funny is, I remember for decades people have been wanting to see a Superman/superhuman brawl with the actual amount of mass destruction something like that would entail, and then when we finally get it, it's all people complain about.
Personally speaking (obviously) I was, at first, thrilled to see a truly apocalyptic battle between Supes and the baddies. It's what one would expect if a handful of god-like beings did battle in a metropolitan setting. It's impressive to look at.

But I am continually dismayed by the hand-waving over the casualties that such a battle would have created. It wouldn't have taken much within the film to address this, either - a simple line from Supes about it as the battle intensified, would have at least acknowledged what was happening. Perhaps a line or two after the fact. But as it stands now, for all its visual beauty and realistic portrayal, the scene has all the emotional impact of the Transformers gorging themselves on Chicago.
__________________
Ancient Mariner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 22 2014, 06:57 AM   #26
AllStarEntprise
Fleet Captain
 
AllStarEntprise's Avatar
 
Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

Ancient Mariner wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
What's funny is, I remember for decades people have been wanting to see a Superman/superhuman brawl with the actual amount of mass destruction something like that would entail, and then when we finally get it, it's all people complain about.
Personally speaking (obviously) I was, at first, thrilled to see a truly apocalyptic battle between Supes and the baddies. It's what one would expect if a handful of god-like beings did battle in a metropolitan setting. It's impressive to look at.

But I am continually dismayed by the hand-waving over the casualties that such a battle would have created. It wouldn't have taken much within the film to address this, either - a simple line from Supes about it as the battle intensified, would have at least acknowledged what was happening. Perhaps a line or two after the fact. But as it stands now, for all its visual beauty and realistic portrayal, the scene has all the emotional impact of the Transformers gorging themselves on Chicago.
With regards to Transformers:
I wouldn't say that. Transformers 3 was viscious. We saw civilians being blasted to dust. Reminded me of the Tripods in War of the Worlds (2005) and their attack on humanity. MOS was mass destruction but glossing over the human element for the sake of keeping the action moving. Star Trek Into Darkness did the same thing when Khan crashed the Vengeance into San Fransico, and nary a line is brought up about it when it happened or in the final moments of the film. The crash happens and we have a chase scene and a battle of fisticuffs between Spock and Khan.

We the audience are supposed to fill in the blanks ourselves I suppose. The Dark Knight Rises probably had thousands of people die in the 3 months Gotham was basically "No Man Land". However there is never a seen in TDKR which address the civilian casualties. I suppose the creative and executive teams don't think it's worth mentioning.
AllStarEntprise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 22 2014, 07:05 AM   #27
Ancient Mariner
Rear Admiral
 
Ancient Mariner's Avatar
 
Location: Sailing for adventure on the Big Blue Wet Thing™
View Ancient Mariner's Twitter Profile
Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
MOS was mass destruction but glossing over the human element for the sake of keeping the action moving. Star Trek Into Darkness did the same thing ... I suppose the creative and executive teams don't think it's worth mentioning.
That's my objection in a nutshell ... the "glossing over the human element for the sake of keeping the action moving." And the fact that the deaths of thousands isn't "worth mentioning" - even though these characters are all about saving lives, rather than sacrificing them. It really wouldn't have taken much to acknowledge the human element, and it really wouldn't have hindered the action to have a line or two of dialogue tossed in between the demolition of buildings. So the fact that it's not there is what I object to.

It's not something that keeps me from enjoying MoS, mind you. I liked it quite a bit. But it's the biggest, most problematic element to the film (IMO).
__________________
Ancient Mariner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 22 2014, 12:15 PM   #28
Alidar Jarok
Everything in moderation but moderation
 
Alidar Jarok's Avatar
 
Location: Norfolk, VA
Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

Agenda wrote: View Post
This movie forgets why Superman is an iconic character and idol of millions. Jor El keeps telling him he's a symbol of hope but all you see is violence and scenes of destruction. Watching it you get the sense that humanity would be better off if he wasn't there...along with his Kryptonian pals. The final straw was at the end when takes that satellite down. No, this living alien god is not a loose canon AT ALL. Hell, if I was the US gov, I'd be on the line to Lex Luthor that night, and I'd be perfectly justified.
Well, yeah, I agree that they'd have been better off without both Superman and Zod, but that doesn't mean Superman could have stopped Zod from doing all that he was doing. Of course, I realize that Zod wouldn't have tried to destroy Earth but for Superman being there, but the everyone else doesn't necessarily know that and I think it's apparent that Superman couldn't have minimized the destruction any other way besides simply stopping Zod.

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
What if I told you the action scenes in MOS were shorter than they were in Avengers?

The fight between Superman, Faora and Nam-Ek in Smallville lasts 6 minutes. The scene to stop the World Engine from the moment it is turned on, lasts 10 minutes. That includes dialogue between certain characters. The final fight between Superman and Zod last 6 minutes.
While I believe you, the final fight scene seemed too long. I'm not sure why. The 10 minute World Engine scene seemed fine, but the six minute final fight didn't. Maybe it's because it felt like a continuation of the previous fight (making it a 16 minute fight) or maybe it was just too repetitive. That's the only one that I felt seemed gratuitous and it's the only one that most people complain about.
__________________
When on Romulus, Do as the Romulans
Alidar Jarok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 22 2014, 01:40 PM   #29
Flying Spaghetti Monster
Vice Admiral
 
Flying Spaghetti Monster's Avatar
 
Location: Flying Spaghetti Western
Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

While I hesitate to give the Avengers too much praise, the final action scene in that film was really well done, for what it was. It was built up well for most of the film. Instead of it being two supermen fighting and not caring about the massive amounts of collateral damage, it was a half dozen heroes that had to work together, each offering some unique way to contribute talents. It also was bright and colorful and really looked and felt like a comic book. There was a progression to the fight. Each character got involved in their own unique way, an eventually they had to figure out how to deal with the threat. Man of Steel's fight seemed long, tedious, repetitive, humorless, boring, shallow, preachy and all of that. As well as dull, and colorless, and it felt like the stakes were less important than its own showiness. The Avengers took time to save people from what was happening. Superman in the original films spent more time saving people than actually engaging Zod and his cronies. Man of Steel's fight seemed, endless, excessive, and utterly pointless. That's why the minutes dragged and dragged, because it was all listless and there was nothing to hook the audience after the initial minute or two of seeing two Supermen duking it out.
__________________
Can't we have pills and cook the corn?
Flying Spaghetti Monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 22 2014, 03:47 PM   #30
Yminale
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Democratically Liberated America
Re: MAN OF STEEL: Another look

I agree with everybody on MoS but the problem wasn't the violence but Superman. Superman is completely cold and unlikable. Unlike Christopher Reeves Superman, there is no sense that MoS Superman feels anything but blind anger. I know people are saying we should wait for "Superman vs. Batman" to see how MoS affected Superman but come on do you really believe that. I liked how "Iron Man 3" didn't hand wave the destruction in New York but used it's psychological toll on Tony Stark as one of it's premise. I like how the end of season one of "Arrow" made the main character in to a better hero.
__________________
This Space for Rent
Yminale is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
man of steel, superman, zack snyder

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:24 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.