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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old April 4 2014, 11:14 PM   #46
Armored Saint
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

trevanian wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
When Riker called security in "Conspiracy", LaForge and Worf rather mysteriously responded; later, Worf actually became a Security Chief.
I haven't seen much of TNG in years, but wasn't Worf acting security chief as soon as Tasha bit it? He was the one making the statement about it not being about engaging the tarbaby, that it was about rescuing the crewmembers, which covers all the strategic/tac issues at hand.
Yep, Worf was already replacing Tasha before Conspiracy.
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Old April 4 2014, 11:49 PM   #47
The Old Mixer
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

Too bad they deleted the scene where Worf paid the tarbaby off....

Christopher wrote: View Post
Except they ruined that when they introduced the Pegasus, because its crew was supposed to be the best and the brightest, but they were portrayed as psychotics and sadists far worse than anyone on Galactica. And while at first one could believe that maybe they'd been worn down to that point after months of a hellish struggle for survival, the movie Razor ruined that by showing Admiral Cain as a psychotic even before the invasion and showing the crew resort to monstrous tactics the very first time they were faced with a crisis. Cain is the one character in the franchise who was actually portrayed with more nuance and complexity in the original series than in the revival.
I'd thought of addressing the Pegasus, but it didn't ultimately matter because the ship was only around for a limited time, the commander even less, and first and foremost to the discussion, it was never the hero ship of the series. While it was a more state-of-the-art ship than Galactica with a flag officer commanding it, I don't recall the show ever indulging in the Trek conceit that it was considered the flagship of the fleet or its crew were the best of the best. It was a more tightly-run ship with a more "hardcore" militaristic crew, and a lesson in "there but for the grace of the gods go I" for Adama and the crew of Galactica.

So I don't think that they ruined anything about the premise of the series, or about the general mission of the show to go outside the Trek paradigms. Neither crew at its prime was up to snuff with Trek's heroic ideals.
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Old April 5 2014, 12:00 AM   #48
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
So I don't think that they ruined anything about the premise of the series, or about the general mission of the show to go outside the Trek paradigms.
Me neither. The Colonial military in Moore's BSG was supposed to be a real military staffed with realistic military personalities. And the thing about real militaries is that they sometimes attract, and promote, thugs. The best and brightest of the American air force at one time was Curtis "Bombs Away" LeMay, who was equal parts brilliant and efficient, belligerent and bloodthirsty and thoroughly authoritarian... much like Admiral Cain.

(And I think it's perfectly plausible for such a personality to go to the dark places that Cain goes to -- especially in apocalyptic circumstances -- and even to start out with one foot solidly in those dark places. Though I can't speak to Razor, which I'm told verges on being BSG's answer to the Star Wars Holiday Special.)
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Old April 5 2014, 12:05 AM   #49
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

And ultimately, it was the surviving Pegasus crew who had to assimilate to Galactica's situation with the rag-tag fleet, not vice versa.
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Old April 5 2014, 06:40 PM   #50
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

I don't really see the appeal of an overpower hero who should be able to solve problems in 5 seconds since either there is no plot or byu not doing so it makes them look like idiots.
But if an "overpower hero" solves problems by blasting them to bits, then he becomes nothing but a villain. An underdog hero somehow is considered to be heroic when murdering and maiming because he's doing that from the underdog position, which IMHO is despicable but nevertheless carries much of filmed and televised drama.

There are two motivations to be heroic without resorting to violence: one is because you are too weak to do violence, the other is because you are too good to do violence. IMHO the latter makes for a much stronger character, and thereby much more interesting stories, even if it doesn't cater for conventional drama.

Yep, Worf was already replacing Tasha before Conspiracy.
Oops, quite true - my mistake!

Still doesn't explain why "security" would consist of Worf and LaForge, rather than from Worf and two yellowshirt extras or, better still, just those two yellowshirt extras who supposedly don't have to come all the way from the bridge to respond!

Of course, the sensible way for the plot to unfold there, even though not explicated and perhaps not intended, would be for Riker's plea for Security to fail because Admiral Quinn had carefully jammed the comms with his flag privileges (and perhaps some additional alien trickery). After beating Riker to submission, Quinn would then send a call of his own - one summoning top officers instead of security goons, so that he could overpower them and bring them under the alien influence, too. He was tasked with corrupting Crusher, and Crusher was among those who responded to the call (despite definitely not being Security).

What went wrong with that plan, we aren't told. His downfall is that Crusher picks up LaForge's phaser, of course - but we never learn why LaForge had a phaser in the first place, if Riker's summons weren't heard and Quinn decided whom to invite and how. Yet if we assume that Riker's summons were heard, we have even more rationalizing to do.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old April 6 2014, 02:41 PM   #51
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

As usual Star Trek tends to use military terms for STarfleet but puts a 24th century twist. I think this gives a sense of history without slavishly depending on it exactness to establish a difference for the future.
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Old April 7 2014, 05:33 AM   #52
poloronbeam
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

Timo wrote: View Post
I don't really see the appeal of an overpower hero who should be able to solve problems in 5 seconds since either there is no plot or byu not doing so it makes them look like idiots.
But if an "overpower hero" solves problems by blasting them to bits, then he becomes nothing but a villain. An underdog hero somehow is considered to be heroic when murdering and maiming because he's doing that from the underdog position, which IMHO is despicable but nevertheless carries much of filmed and televised drama.

There are two motivations to be heroic without resorting to violence: one is because you are too weak to do violence, the other is because you are too good to do violence. IMHO the latter makes for a much stronger character, and thereby much more interesting stories, even if it doesn't cater for conventional drama.

Yep, Worf was already replacing Tasha before Conspiracy.
Oops, quite true - my mistake!

Still doesn't explain why "security" would consist of Worf and LaForge, rather than from Worf and two yellowshirt extras or, better still, just those two yellowshirt extras who supposedly don't have to come all the way from the bridge to respond!

Of course, the sensible way for the plot to unfold there, even though not explicated and perhaps not intended, would be for Riker's plea for Security to fail because Admiral Quinn had carefully jammed the comms with his flag privileges (and perhaps some additional alien trickery). After beating Riker to submission, Quinn would then send a call of his own - one summoning top officers instead of security goons, so that he could overpower them and bring them under the alien influence, too. He was tasked with corrupting Crusher, and Crusher was among those who responded to the call (despite definitely not being Security).

What went wrong with that plan, we aren't told. His downfall is that Crusher picks up LaForge's phaser, of course - but we never learn why LaForge had a phaser in the first place, if Riker's summons weren't heard and Quinn decided whom to invite and how. Yet if we assume that Riker's summons were heard, we have even more rationalizing to do.

Timo Saloniemi
I've always thought that Worf and Geordi apparently running from the bridge was strange. But then again, after seeing how quickly Geordi recuperated after having been thrown through a 24th century reinforced door, maybe he was the right person for the job. -Lol
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Old April 7 2014, 05:49 AM   #53
poloronbeam
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

Christopher wrote: View Post
The problem is, dramatically it makes sense to focus a series on the best people around, since if there's someone better and more effective out there, why aren't we watching them instead? Plus having the main characters be the best problem-solvers around helps explain why they get assigned to so many major crises and unusual situations (since in real life, most people don't face two dozen world-shaking adventures per year). So it's one of those things that are done for the sake of the story even at the expense of plausibility.
I'm in the camp of people that also disagrees with this "best of the best" theory when it comes to the Ent-D being named as the "flagship" of Starfleet or the Federation. One of the main problems with this approach is that ALL of the Enterprises' (1701 - E) have been OVERWHELLMINGLY crewed with HUMAN personnel, and have NEVER been commanded by a non-Human captain (except by Spock as a training instructor). So, is the message that Starfleet is sending to the rest of the Federation is that "the best of the best" just HAPPEN to be primarily HUMANS? So much for IDIC.
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Old April 7 2014, 06:44 AM   #54
Skywalker
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

poloronbeam wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
The problem is, dramatically it makes sense to focus a series on the best people around, since if there's someone better and more effective out there, why aren't we watching them instead? Plus having the main characters be the best problem-solvers around helps explain why they get assigned to so many major crises and unusual situations (since in real life, most people don't face two dozen world-shaking adventures per year). So it's one of those things that are done for the sake of the story even at the expense of plausibility.
I'm in the camp of people that also disagrees with this "best of the best" theory when it comes to the Ent-D being named as the "flagship" of Starfleet or the Federation. One of the main problems with this approach is that ALL of the Enterprises' (1701 - E) have been OVERWHELLMINGLY crewed with HUMAN personnel, and have NEVER been commanded by a non-Human captain (except by Spock as a training instructor). So, is the message that Starfleet is sending to the rest of the Federation is that "the best of the best" just HAPPEN to be primarily HUMANS? So much for IDIC.
Come on, of course that's not the message Starfleet is sending. The crews are all mostly humans purely because of budgetary reasons. It'd cost way too much money to fly a bunch of aliens in to Hollywood.
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Old April 7 2014, 09:54 AM   #55
Robert Comsol
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

poloronbeam wrote: View Post
So, is the message that Starfleet is sending to the rest of the Federation is that "the best of the best" just HAPPEN to be primarily HUMANS? So much for IDIC.
Perhaps just pure coincidence.

Already in "Journey to Babel" Sarek made it clear that he disapproved Spock joining Starfleet and had expected him to stay home on Vulcan. Possibly a general Vulcan sentiment and the USS Intrepid was a rare exception.

What the Andorian ambassador said about his species in "Journey to Babel" didn't exactly encourage my desire to see Starfleet vessels with Andorian captains.

And Tellarites apparently had a temper problem which I don't think would actually qualify them for delicate first contact missions.

However, we did have an alien president of the United Federation of Planets in ST VI-TUC, though I don't think his policy of transparency (allowing the Romulan ambassador to attend a top secret Starfleet staff meeting ) was a wise one.

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Old April 7 2014, 12:06 PM   #56
poloronbeam
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

Skywalker wrote: View Post
poloronbeam wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
The problem is, dramatically it makes sense to focus a series on the best people around, since if there's someone better and more effective out there, why aren't we watching them instead? Plus having the main characters be the best problem-solvers around helps explain why they get assigned to so many major crises and unusual situations (since in real life, most people don't face two dozen world-shaking adventures per year). So it's one of those things that are done for the sake of the story even at the expense of plausibility.
I'm in the camp of people that also disagrees with this "best of the best" theory when it comes to the Ent-D being named as the "flagship" of Starfleet or the Federation. One of the main problems with this approach is that ALL of the Enterprises' (1701 - E) have been OVERWHELLMINGLY crewed with HUMAN personnel, and have NEVER been commanded by a non-Human captain (except by Spock as a training instructor). So, is the message that Starfleet is sending to the rest of the Federation is that "the best of the best" just HAPPEN to be primarily HUMANS? So much for IDIC.
Come on, of course that's not the message Starfleet is sending. The crews are all mostly humans purely because of budgetary reasons. It'd cost way too much money to fly a bunch of aliens in to Hollywood.
Oh relax, dude/dudette. I'm fully aware of the "real world" reason as to why this occurred. However, that still does present the need to at least address it "in story". Isn't this why this very thread exists. to discuss why a fictional ship in a fictional universe was called "flagship", and all the ramifications of such a designation?
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Old April 7 2014, 12:23 PM   #57
poloronbeam
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
poloronbeam wrote: View Post
So, is the message that Starfleet is sending to the rest of the Federation is that "the best of the best" just HAPPEN to be primarily HUMANS? So much for IDIC.
Perhaps just pure coincidence.

Already in "Journey to Babel" Sarek made it clear that he disapproved Spock joining Starfleet and had expected him to stay home on Vulcan. Possibly a general Vulcan sentiment and the USS Intrepid was a rare exception.

What the Andorian ambassador said about his species in "Journey to Babel" didn't exactly encourage my desire to see Starfleet vessels with Andorian captains.
That's what interesting about the Federation. As far as "recently", ("Take Me Out To The Holosuite"), it appears that individual species/races can still have ships to "themselves", without having to serve with additional species/races. So, maybe there are additional "flagships" of the Federation based on species/region of space, and the Enterprise is the Starfleet "Flagship" of Earth and/or the human race? Not the most comforting thought given the behavior that we saw those Vulcans displaying toward humans in general in that DS9 episode, but still a possible "in story" explanation?
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Old April 7 2014, 01:01 PM   #58
Timo
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

But then again, after seeing how quickly Geordi recuperated after having been thrown through a 24th century reinforced door, maybe he was the right person for the job. -Lol
The jury is out like a snowman on whether those doors are reinforced or not. They don't appear airtight (there's no threshold to act as a seal, just carpeting), and whenever they pose an impenetrable obstacle to Worf and his teams, we can always argue that the occupant/villain who jammed the lock has also activated the forcefield that we sometimes see associated with these doorways.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old April 7 2014, 07:04 PM   #59
Skywalker
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

poloronbeam wrote: View Post
Skywalker wrote: View Post
poloronbeam wrote: View Post
I'm in the camp of people that also disagrees with this "best of the best" theory when it comes to the Ent-D being named as the "flagship" of Starfleet or the Federation. One of the main problems with this approach is that ALL of the Enterprises' (1701 - E) have been OVERWHELLMINGLY crewed with HUMAN personnel, and have NEVER been commanded by a non-Human captain (except by Spock as a training instructor). So, is the message that Starfleet is sending to the rest of the Federation is that "the best of the best" just HAPPEN to be primarily HUMANS? So much for IDIC.
Come on, of course that's not the message Starfleet is sending. The crews are all mostly humans purely because of budgetary reasons. It'd cost way too much money to fly a bunch of aliens in to Hollywood.
Oh relax, dude/dudette. I'm fully aware of the "real world" reason as to why this occurred. However, that still does present the need to at least address it "in story". Isn't this why this very thread exists. to discuss why a fictional ship in a fictional universe was called "flagship", and all the ramifications of such a designation?
My apologies, my post was only meant to be a joke. I knew I should have included some kind of smiley.
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Old April 8 2014, 07:24 AM   #60
poloronbeam
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Re: WTH is the NCC1701-D "the Flagship"?

Skywalker wrote: View Post
poloronbeam wrote: View Post
Skywalker wrote: View Post
Come on, of course that's not the message Starfleet is sending. The crews are all mostly humans purely because of budgetary reasons. It'd cost way too much money to fly a bunch of aliens in to Hollywood.
Oh relax, dude/dudette. I'm fully aware of the "real world" reason as to why this occurred. However, that still does present the need to at least address it "in story". Isn't this why this very thread exists. to discuss why a fictional ship in a fictional universe was called "flagship", and all the ramifications of such a designation?
My apologies, my post was only meant to be a joke. I knew I should have included some kind of smiley.
No problem.
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