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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old March 31 2014, 06:37 PM   #16
FredH
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Re: "Ahead, Space Normal Speed"

Well, if the point is "Not warp speed," then it doesn't matter what slower-than-light speed they're actually at. Kirk is telling Sulu to head away from the planet without going to warp, basically "staying in place while moving" since at either .9c or 3mph, you're not reaching the next star system for a long, long time. Kirk doesn't care what slow speed Sulu actually sets, since the point is to stick around and not get anywhere while technically obeying orders to leave.
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Old March 31 2014, 06:56 PM   #17
Melakon
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Re: "Ahead, Space Normal Speed"

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
ClayinCA wrote: View Post
ssosmcin wrote: View Post
I'm more curious as to why Kirk only orders warp one after getting the shuttle crew back, since he dilly dallied his ass up to that point.
He just wants to really piss off Commissioner Ferris.
How can someone become "Commissioner" while being that much of an ass?
John Crawford is reported as not enjoying his time on the show, and apparently had some sort of friction with Shatner on a personal level. So it's always made me wonder what Shatner did that was so repulsive to him. He apparently had a pretty lengthy career for a while, even appearing in Harryhausen's Jason and the Argonauts.

The only other thing I remember seeing him in was a Lost in Space episode as Chronos the Time Merchant.
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Old March 31 2014, 07:02 PM   #18
ssosmcin
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Re: "Ahead, Space Normal Speed"

Irwin Allen apparently loved John Crawford, using him four times in The Time Tunnel, once on Lost in Space, Land of the Giants and Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea. Not to mention The Poseidon Adventure and The Towering Inferno.
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Old March 31 2014, 08:32 PM   #19
Timo
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Re: "Ahead, Space Normal Speed"

I'd favor the "it's any speed below warp" interpretation, for the reason FredH gives: it's a unique order to refrain from leaving the star system too soon.

If it were some specific, agreed-upon speed every helmsman knows about, one would assume the order to be given in every third episode at least - not to be applied here and here only. Why go to the trouble of agreeing upon something if you never actually put it to use?

That we hear the order only once in the history of Star Trek is consistent with it being an order of low applicability. More specific things such as "half impulse" or "forward thrusters" have more utility value and thus are heard more often.

On the other hand, while warp one seems to be a perfectly useful interstellar speed in many episodes, it's odd for Kirk to use it when in a hurry. If warp one will do at the conclusion of the adventure, supposedly the ship could have waited for a couple of days and then sailed out at warp three, or taken a two-month leave of absence and then shot out at warp seven. I guess we have to assume that it's not wise to apply high-cochrane warp fields close to mini-quasars...

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Old March 31 2014, 09:24 PM   #20
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: "Ahead, Space Normal Speed"

This makes me think also of ST:TMP, where Kirk orders "Ahead warp...point five!". Wouldn't a sub-warp velocity be in the dominion of an impulse speed?

As far as 'space normal', my take is that it depends where you are. It might be the speed of a given object (artificial or natural), and the velocity required to maintain its position against gravitational pull from planets, stars, etc....kind of like an orbital velocity, really: too slow and you begin to arc toward the gravity source. Space normal speed when ten million miles from a star will be faster than space normal speed when a hundred million miles from the same star.

I hope I explained that well. If I'm not going to make any sense, I at least want to say it right.
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Old April 1 2014, 02:00 PM   #21
vulcan redshirt
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Re: "Ahead, Space Normal Speed"

A bit like 'standard orbit' which we hear in TNG and beyond and is never defined, perhaps space normal speed is reference to following a normal procedure for the type of space the ship is in, without resorting to on-screen technobabble.

Perhaps there are various 'speed limits' for different types of space, for example, joining or leaving orbit, where heavy space traffic is present, in proximity to asteroid fields / gaseous anomalies etc as well as interstellar space.

Re 0.5 warp, full impulse is significantly slower than lightspeed, and is not 0.99 lightspeed so if there is a need to travel at 0.5 lightspeed, the 0.5 warp would be the only way to do it. Also don't we only hear that during the acceleration phase anyway?
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Old April 1 2014, 02:18 PM   #22
Timo
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Re: "Ahead, Space Normal Speed"

This makes me think also of ST:TMP, where Kirk orders "Ahead warp...point five!". Wouldn't a sub-warp velocity be in the dominion of an impulse speed?
Not if the point is to test the new warp engines...

A bit like 'standard orbit' which we hear in TNG and beyond and is never defined, perhaps space normal speed is reference to following a normal procedure for the type of space the ship is in, without resorting to on-screen technobabble.
The only (but major) problem I have with this is that "standard orbit" is heard in virtually every episode, while "space normal" in virtually none - suggesting that the former is indeed "standard" but there is nothing "normal" about the latter.

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Old April 1 2014, 03:08 PM   #23
J.T.B.
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Re: "Ahead, Space Normal Speed"

Timo wrote: View Post
If it were some specific, agreed-upon speed every helmsman knows about, one would assume the order to be given in every third episode at least - not to be applied here and here only. Why go to the trouble of agreeing upon something if you never actually put it to use?
Perhaps it's some standard that is commonly applied to civilian and merchant vessels, but something Starfleet vessels don't normally bother with except in certain circumstances.
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Old April 1 2014, 03:11 PM   #24
Timo
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Re: "Ahead, Space Normal Speed"

So basically, Kirk is telling Ferris that he is obeying the no-waves rule applying to marina areas...

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Old April 1 2014, 03:52 PM   #25
Vandervecken
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Re: "Ahead, Space Normal Speed"

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
ClayinCA wrote: View Post
ssosmcin wrote: View Post
I'm more curious as to why Kirk only orders warp one after getting the shuttle crew back, since he dilly dallied his ass up to that point.
He just wants to really piss off Commissioner Ferris.
How can someone become "Commissioner" while being that much of an ass?
That's a job requirement for Commissioners in TOS.
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Old April 1 2014, 09:25 PM   #26
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: "Ahead, Space Normal Speed"

Timo wrote: View Post
Not if the point is to test the new warp engines...
Timo...that is an excellent point. I wasn't thinking in terms of the engines being brand spanking new!

Although... now it's got me wondering just how finely-tuned they can set their speeds. Can warp engines be used to drive them below light speed? Would it basically be like cutting a pizza with a circular saw?

Timo wrote: View Post
The only (but major) problem I have with this is that "standard orbit" is heard in virtually every episode, while "space normal" in virtually none - suggesting that the former is indeed "standard" but there is nothing "normal" about the latter.
Here's another one to chew on, from Elaan of Troyius:

KIRK: Mister Chekov, lay in a course for Troyius. Mister Sulu, impulse drive, speed factor point zero three seven.
SULU: Impulse drive, Captain?
KIRK: Yes, that's correct, Mister Sulu. Sublight factor point zero three seven.

I always thought that was a weirdly specific speed...

Timo wrote: View Post
So basically, Kirk is telling Ferris that he is obeying the no-waves rule applying to marina areas...
Metaphorically, that works for me!
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Old April 1 2014, 09:42 PM   #27
Timo
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Re: "Ahead, Space Normal Speed"

Although... now it's got me wondering just how finely-tuned they can set their speeds. Can warp engines be used to drive them below light speed? Would it basically be like cutting a pizza with a circular saw?
Probably - which is why it's only done this once.

(Or does Sulu fiddle with his throttle lever for sublight movement in the nuMovies, too?)

I always thought that was a weirdly specific speed...
Intriguing indeed. Did Kirk perhaps calculate the minimum travel time Ambassador Petri needs to educate the feral ruleress, and make sure that the trip with the wild thing aboard won't last a minute longer than that?

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Old April 2 2014, 03:16 AM   #28
ZapBrannigan
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Re: "Ahead, Space Normal Speed"

Timo wrote: View Post
Intriguing indeed. Did Kirk perhaps calculate the minimum travel time Ambassador Petri needs to educate the feral ruleress, and make sure that the trip with the wild thing aboard won't last a minute longer than that?

Timo Saloniemi

I think the audience is supposed to figure that Kirk did some arithmetic before walking onto the bridge and giving that .037 order.

Also, I think the speed the writers picked is a little too fast, if it's 3.7% of the speed of light. For one thing, going that fast through normal space might get you into time dilation. And if the two planets are say 30 million miles apart, you'd get to Troyius in only 72 minutes.

Edit: the two planets could have been many times that far apart.

Last edited by ZapBrannigan; April 2 2014 at 03:33 AM.
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Old April 2 2014, 05:06 AM   #29
Warped9
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Re: "Ahead, Space Normal Speed"

You won't get any serious time dilation unless you're going a lot faster. 3.7 percent of light is nothing. Even at fifty percent light time dilation is only about three percent. You've got to be doing eighty to ninety percent light to get some truly serious time dilation.
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Old April 2 2014, 08:05 AM   #30
Timo
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Re: "Ahead, Space Normal Speed"

I guess Kirk could have planned on taking the scenic route, with one hundred and fifty-eight loops around the local sun. Perhaps .037 was the lowest speed he dared suggest, lest some regulation or another be broken and an explanatory log entry be required? That is, it might be that at .036 c target speed or lower, impulse engines have a measurable (if practically meaningless) risk of some sort of subspatial overheating and the regulations therefore draw a line there, one that Kirk quotes, and everybody recognizes the quote for what it is.

Or then this "factor" business doesn't mean anything as simple as multiplying c with the value...

How far apart could the two planets be if the two lifeforms are both native and pretty similar in life support requirements? The star might be a giant, with a correspondingly vast Goldilocks zone around her - or then one or both of the homeworlds are in fact moons to local almost-stars and sustain life because of local Goldilocks zones rather than the systemwide one.

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