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Old March 30 2014, 06:28 PM   #61
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
For comparison's sake, here's EarthForce One from Babylon 5:



EarthForce One
Best works avoiding the transfer point off Io.


I do think that if such a ship is used in a future movie or TV show, this Babylon 5 ship isn't a bad thing to base it off of, especially the fighters used as escort (although that would be small battle cruisers as escorts, most likely, or big ones.)
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Old March 30 2014, 06:38 PM   #62
Elvira
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Sci wrote: View Post
and no canonical source that I can recall has ever claimed that its Member worlds are the sovereigns
In two separate episodes the United Federation of Planets is directly referred to as a "Alliance."

In Spectre Of The Gun, Kirk referred to the United Federations of Planets in the TOS era as "... a vast alliance of fellow creatures ..." Not a vast interstellar state.

In Azati Prime, Daniels refers to the multiple species in the Federation as being "... unified in a powerful alliance." Not a powerful interstellar state.

And there Sci, are your canonical sources, glad I could help out.

Meanwhile, the Federation is sovereign in its own right
Problem there is it's never directly referred to as such.

As a allied assemblage of sovereign star nations, the organization's governing body (the Council) could have the ability to make group decision in the areas of defense and external diplomatic affairs.

The Council's presiding official could hold the title of "President," or even PotUFP. They would be elected by other members of the Council as the Council's leader.

The Federation Council President would have the authority to declare a State of Emergency on the one Member world where the Federation governing body meet, but not necessarily on any other world in the Federation.

There no evidence that a state of emergency was declared on Betazed when it was invaded by the Dominion.

The Federation would have the power delegated to it by the Member worlds.

it has its own territory
The multiple territories of the various sovereign Members of the Federation, the home worlds and colonies. Plus additional territorial claims by the Federation.

it has its own military in the form of Starfleet
Providing for a common defense would be one of the primary reasons for forming the Federation in the first place.

it declares and wages war
While the Federation does wage a fair number of wars, there not a single example of the Council declaring war in any of the series.

it has a legislature capable of making binding statutory law
Are you bringing up that speed limit thing again Sci?

its own citizenship
The people on the show clearly self-identify with their respective home worlds and species, and not with being Federationists.

Being a "Federation citizen" is like being a modern day "citizen of the world."

The U.N., by contrast, contains none of these traits; it describes itself as "a tool of its Member States."
"A tool of its Member States." would be a excellent way of describing the Federation.

No one is saying the the Federation is exactly like the UN, but that it was more like the UN. More so than a sovereign nation. An alliance like the Federation has ever existed on Earth, there would be aspects to it that are unique and new.

**********




Love it.

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Old March 30 2014, 06:44 PM   #63
J.T.B.
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

T'Girl wrote: View Post
I think (occasionally I do) that USS Triumphant point was that the Abraham Lincoln did not change it's call sign to a unique one for whenever the president is aboard, while the president was actually aboard.

It would have kept the call sign that it was using prior to the president's arrival.
I see the point. I was thinking in terms of comparisons to Starfleet ships, which it seems use their actual names in voice communications.

Sci wrote: View Post
If I'm the Director of the Federation Security Agency, I'm gonna want at least three Defiant-class starships permanently attached to defending Paris One wherever she goes.
Whoa, how wild a place is the Federation? We see the Galaxy class face the unknowns of the frontiers of explored space unescorted, but travel within the Federation is so dangerous a Galaxy can't defend herself without three Defiants? That seems fairly overblown to me.
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Old March 30 2014, 07:22 PM   #64
Timo
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

It does seem as if "inside UFP borders" and "outside UFP borders" aren't too different in terms of military threats. Klingons got all the way to Genesis; Romulans got all the way to Risa; Klingons got to the orbit of the Romulan homeworld! Sure, there may be anti-cloak countermeasures in place, and sure, they are presumed to be somewhat effective in the direction of the Romulan Star Empire ("Face of the Enemy"), but you can never be sure that the empty space next to your Presidential Yacht really is empty.

Cloaks aren't the only way to render borders meaningless. High speed or high firepower allow enemies to penetrate to the very heart of the UFP, too. In "Descent", people on the Moon seriously thought that the Borg were on their doorstep without advance warning! And never mind spatiotemporal anomalies, or surprise strikes by seemingly innocuous parties, although what good an armed escort would do against those is unclear.

Whether the President really is worth protecting is another issue. Why should he/she/it be a high value target to anybody with the means to harm a spacecraft (as random nutcases would be deterred by the defenses of a runabout already)? The President only has as much symbolic value as is afforded him/her/it, and a massive armed escort affords such value, perhaps disproportionately. OTOH, surely you can always elect a new President, and use the loss of the previous one as a valid excuse for whatever firm action you want to take...

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Old March 30 2014, 07:22 PM   #65
MacLeod
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

You could possibly say the closest real world analogy is the UFP is the EU. A group od disperate nations who have allied together (at least in some areas).
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Old March 30 2014, 07:41 PM   #66
USS Triumphant
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Well, the Federation *did* have the power to force residents to leave the colony worlds that they traded to the Cardassians to settle a border dispute. That doesn't sound like they ONLY have the power over sovereign members that is granted to them by those members. It sounds like a Federal system.

But honestly, I think this is useless to argue unless you're willing to bring the novels into play, because going strictly by what has been shown on screen, then much like what is going on with the Federation's economy, evidence can be provided for several different alternatives with none of them being a definitive answer.
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Old March 31 2014, 12:57 AM   #67
Elvira
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
Well, the Federation *did* have the power to force residents to leave the colony worlds that they traded to the Cardassians to settle a border dispute.
I don't think that territory was the Federation's to start with, it was basically just open space beyond the Federation's established borders. The colonists venture in without the Federation's permission, the Federation and the Union did fight for the new territory, but in the end neither could claim all of it and so they divided the territory between them. None of the territory was ever Federation territory prior to the division.

That doesn't sound like they ONLY have the power over sovereign members that is granted to them by those members. It sounds like a Federal system.
An alliance could authorize employing it's combined armed forces to expand it's territory.

To extend it's borders to envelop colonies that were created outside the existing "old" borders.

But honestly, I think this is useless to argue unless you're willing to bring the novels into play ...
I for one am not willing to do that.

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Old March 31 2014, 01:31 AM   #68
USS Triumphant
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

T'Girl wrote: View Post
USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
But honestly, I think this is useless to argue unless you're willing to bring the novels into play ...
I for one am not willing to do that.

Then, as I said, I believe arguing the issue amounts to useless fanwankery, as there's no definitive onscreen answer and there's ways to use onscreen "evidence" to support multiple mutually exclusive options.
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Old March 31 2014, 04:36 AM   #69
George Steinbrenner
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Wouldn't it be a bad idea for the Federation president to always travel on the same starship? Word would get out quick. Everybody would know where the president is. And that would make their ship an awfully convenient target.

Seems that it'd be much more secure if the president travels on a randomly selected starship. If nobody knows where the president is, they're likely to be that much safer, innit?
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Old March 31 2014, 01:20 PM   #70
Forbin
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Wouldn't it be a bad idea for the Federation president to always travel on the same starship? Word would get out quick. Everybody would know where the president is. And that would make their ship an awfully convenient target.

Seems that it'd be much more secure if the president travels on a randomly selected starship. If nobody knows where the president is, they're likely to be that much safer, innit?
Well, you'd better tell Obama to stop using Air Force One then! Damn thing sticks out like a sore thumb!
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Old March 31 2014, 02:48 PM   #71
anh165
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Forbin wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Wouldn't it be a bad idea for the Federation president to always travel on the same starship? Word would get out quick. Everybody would know where the president is. And that would make their ship an awfully convenient target.

Seems that it'd be much more secure if the president travels on a randomly selected starship. If nobody knows where the president is, they're likely to be that much safer, innit?
Well, you'd better tell Obama to stop using Air Force One then! Damn thing sticks out like a sore thumb!

Not quite the same thing.

In the fictional ST universe, there is nothing to stop a bunch of enemy ships decloaking in front of an media friendly willy waving vessel that the "president" is well known to spend much of his/her intergalactic travels within.
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Old March 31 2014, 03:14 PM   #72
Timo
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Basically, though, there's nothing to stop a determined enemy from destroying, say, fifty top-notch starships suspected of protecting the President.

It's very much a matter of deciding which threat level one wants to prepare against. Even a single starship is probably significant overkill against "civilian" villains, whereas "military" threats cannot be deterred or defended against at all.

What a single armed starship might be good for is keeping the President safe in encounters with completely random dangers that aren't specifically out to get the President but will hijack, destroy or digest vessels lesser than starships, simply because that's what they do - say, space amoebae, Ferengi corsairs, battleshipfuls of drunken Klingons, etc. Essentially, the President would travel protected against the "weather" and "wildlife" (always prudent) rather than against assassins (who won't be stopped by mere security arrangements).

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Old March 31 2014, 06:33 PM   #73
Elvira
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Forbin wrote: View Post
Well, you'd better tell Obama to stop using Air Force One then! Damn thing sticks out like a sore thumb!
The president will sometimes travel on a US government aircraft other than the traditional Air Force One 747, a smaller boeing 757 or big business style jet. just for the reason mentioned, security.

Whatever plane he on is still Air Force One, but it's less obvious.

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Old March 31 2014, 08:53 PM   #74
George Steinbrenner
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

anh165 wrote: View Post
Forbin wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Wouldn't it be a bad idea for the Federation president to always travel on the same starship? Word would get out quick. Everybody would know where the president is. And that would make their ship an awfully convenient target.

Seems that it'd be much more secure if the president travels on a randomly selected starship. If nobody knows where the president is, they're likely to be that much safer, innit?
Well, you'd better tell Obama to stop using Air Force One then! Damn thing sticks out like a sore thumb!

Not quite the same thing.

In the fictional ST universe, there is nothing to stop a bunch of enemy ships decloaking in front of an media friendly willy waving vessel that the "president" is well known to spend much of his/her intergalactic travels within.
Exactly.

The USA's security procedures sure aren't perfect by any means, but they're reasonably secure enough to stop some nutbar terrorist from getting anywhere near our airspace. Hijackings will always be a problem, of course, but those are extremely rare.

Conversely, in the Trek future, it's a lot easier for a hostile power (the Federation is almost literally surrounded by them) to get a cloaked ship, or even a fleet of non-cloaked ships, to destroy the Starfleet vessel they know is carrying the President.

Then again: Is there any real reason why the President would ever want to leave Earth in the first place? Technology is sufficiently advanced to enable absolute real-time teleconferencing. Throw in a holodeck and it's just like being in the same room with whoever the President wants to talk to. So why not stay on Earth, which is deep in Federation space and therefore a lot safer?
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Old March 31 2014, 09:17 PM   #75
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Well, you probably don't make a strong impression on the Klingons by only communicating with them while cowering in a holodeck on Earth...

If faced with one presidential candidate who will never leave Earth and one who's willing to take the risks of going off-world, I know which way I'd likely go, everything else being equal.

If you want to be safe, don't run for President.
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