RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,854
Posts: 5,474,417
Members: 25,043
Currently online: 486
Newest member: denver23

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Covenant
By: Michelle on Nov 22

Two Official Starships Collection Previews
By: T'Bonz on Nov 21

Saldana: Women Issues In Hollywood
By: T'Bonz on Nov 21

Shatner Book Kickstarter
By: T'Bonz on Nov 20

Trek Original Series Slippers
By: T'Bonz on Nov 19

Hemsworth Is Sexiest Man Alive
By: T'Bonz on Nov 19

Trek Business Card Cases
By: T'Bonz on Nov 17

February IDW Publishing Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Nov 17

Retro Review: The Siege of AR-558
By: Michelle on Nov 15

Trevco Full Bleed Uniform T-Shirts
By: T'Bonz on Nov 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 28 2014, 11:00 PM   #31
Shawnster
Fleet Captain
 
Shawnster's Avatar
 
Location: Clinton, OH
Re: Starship of the Federation President

EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
I can understand fans coming up with something generic and unimaginative like "Starfleet 1", but official writers??? ffs....
There is a fine tradition of using this sort of designation - Air Force One, Marine One, etc - for the transport craft carrying the President - and the only reason I can think of that you would consider it "generic and unimaginative" rather than "functional and traditional" is that it originates with the United States. And while I'm a big fan of multiculturalism, myself, the Federation and Starfleet rather obviously DO pull at least some of their tradition from the U.S., and more specifically, the U.S. Navy, so it seems reasonable that at least some of the craft the POTUFP travels aboard would be designated things like Starfleet One and maybe even MACO One, although we haven't seen the latter.

HOWEVER, when President Bush was aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln, to use a relatively recent example, while the Navy S-3 Viking that carried him to the ship was designated Navy One, the whole bloody carrier did not get redesignated Navy One while he was aboard. It only seems appropriate to do that to aircraft or maybe boats, but not to ships. So I could see a shuttle carrying the POTUFP to and from the surface being designated Starfleet One, but I think the starship carrying them between systems would remain U.S.S. Whateveritsnameis, with the possible exception of a high speed transport shuttle assigned specifically to the executive branch, such as the three "Paris One" shuttles.

Personally, I kind of like the idea of the President making high speed jaunts in a retooled Defiant-class with the offensive armaments removed, additional defensive measures added, and the Romulans allowing the use of a cloak since it isn't a Starfleet vessel but one assigned to the office of the POTUFP. But that's just me.

So it never occurred to you that it would be "generic and unimaginative" because it simply is generic and unimaginative?

What should we call a Starship carrying a president? Let's see what US calls an airplane that has such duties...

What should Federation secretary of defense do during a break? Traditionally he goes duck hunting with a phaser...

While Starfleet uses some terms from Royal Navy and U.S. Navy, it does so in the context that makes sense. Gene did tons of stuff that was original and that tried to make 24th century more realistic instead of talking about tradition all the time.

Starships don't have call-signs, it's just an easy way out for the writers
Did you have this much of a negative reaction to Star Trek VI?

Kronos One
Kronos One was a Klingon K't'inga-class battle cruiser that was in service with the Klingon Imperial Fleet in the late 23rd century. Kronos One was the flagship of the Chancellor of the Klingon High Council.
Apparently, in this case, it's the actual name of the ship and not just a callsign.

I had to guffaw when I heard this IN THE MOVIE! I think it's more reasonable for the Federation President to ride on Starfleet One than it is for the Klingon Chancellor to ride on Kronos One. After all, we at least know this is a traditional naming convention for Earth leaders (Earth, being a member of the Federation and leaders because more than one US President has used Air Force One).

It's Friday, but I've not been drinking. These kind of rather simplistic details do show up in Star Trek. I don't think any of us would describe the writers of Star Trek VI as generic and unimaginative. Star Trek V, yes. Star Trek VI, no.
Shawnster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 28 2014, 11:08 PM   #32
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Starship of the Federation President

Apparently, in this case, it's the actual name of the ship and not just a callsign.
It might just as well be the Starfleet tag on this particular enemy vessel.

When Gorkon hails "This is Kronos One", is he even speaking English? The Universal Translator is muddling the waters somewhere in between the speaker and the audience. Change the setting to the Cold War closer to our time, and you might hear Evil Commies calling their vessel a Kara class cruiser or a Krivak class frigate in plain English, even though that's just a NATO callsign and even the terms "cruiser" and "frigate" are foreign fabrications for the Soviet originals.

Naturally, the name of the ship may be Qo'noS 1, too. But that's just one option out of many, and perhaps not the most probable of the lot. (Personally, I think Gorkon is calling himself the Kronos One!)

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 28 2014, 11:20 PM   #33
Shawnster
Fleet Captain
 
Shawnster's Avatar
 
Location: Clinton, OH
Re: Starship of the Federation President

Timo wrote: View Post
Apparently, in this case, it's the actual name of the ship and not just a callsign.
It might just as well be the Starfleet tag on this particular enemy vessel.

When Gorkon hails "This is Kronos One", is he even speaking English? The Universal Translator is muddling the waters somewhere in between the speaker and the audience. Change the setting to the Cold War closer to our time, and you might hear Evil Commies calling their vessel a Kara class cruiser or a Krivak class frigate in plain English, even though that's just a NATO callsign and even the terms "cruiser" and "frigate" are foreign fabrications for the Soviet originals.

Naturally, the name of the ship may be Qo'noS 1, too. But that's just one option out of many, and perhaps not the most probable of the lot. (Personally, I think Gorkon is calling himself the Kronos One!)

Timo Saloniemi
This may be true. However, Memory Alpha only mentions the name, not that it was a Starfleet designation. Of course, when did that stop us from ever second-guessing and reinterpreting the creators intent?

The Japanese also call their Presidential Aircraft Air Force One (and two)
Argentina uses Tango 1 and Tango 2
Azerbaijan uses Baku 1
Brazil uses Forca Aerea 01 (Brazilian Air Force One)

There may be more. Here is a list of Air transports of heads of state.
Shawnster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 28 2014, 11:30 PM   #34
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Starship of the Federation President

However, Memory Alpha only mentions the name, not that it was a Starfleet designation. Of course, when did that stop us from ever second-guessing and reinterpreting the creators intent?
We should never mistake Memory Alpha for the creators' intent... There are other sources for that, sometimes mentioned as a footnote at Memory Alpha, sometimes not.

It is fairly safe to guess and second-guess the intent behind ST6, of course, as the movie takes pains to utilize real Cold War elements to their fullest, from obvious ones like the Chernobyl disaster to more obscure ones like the "Don't wait for the translation!" quip. But I sort of trust that "Starfleet One" would have cropped up eventually in aired Trek, and in written Trek like it did, even without the precedent of the movie.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 28 2014, 11:35 PM   #35
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Starship of the Federation President

^True but it is referred to in dialouge by the President as "this council is now in session" true it doesn't specify that it is the Federation Council. As for Starfleet officers being present, perhaps council members requested that officers be their to advise them on the specifc regualtions Kirk and crew were charged with breaking. It might have been a smaller special Council for the hearing. Why can't starfleet officers be elected as members of the council?

There simply isn't enough on screen to say.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 28 2014, 11:45 PM   #36
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Starship of the Federation President

Fair enough. Having active members of the military as major operators in the government is a big no-no in today's politics in cultures ranging from the US to the Russian Federation and the People's Republic of China, but that need not be a feature that would survive to the 23rd century. Discrimination against the military may be gone, replaced by increased trust in the better nature of powerful warriors and other potential abusers of power. Such increasing trust is a feature in Earth history as well, after all.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29 2014, 01:43 AM   #37
Misfit Toy
Caped Trek Mod
 
Misfit Toy's Avatar
 
Location: Transporter buffer
Re: Starship of the Federation President

EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
That's not what Star Trek is all about at all. It's Friday, so I'll imagine you've been drinking a bit.
Too far. Keep the personal crap OUT of this thread. You've earned an Infraction for Trolling. Relevant comments may be made via Private Message.

Timo wrote: View Post
Oh, go fuck yourself, you silly little man. And when you're back (remember to wash your hands), do face the facts.
Yes, you were provoked, but this probably wasn't the best way to handle it. Infraction for Flaming - comments to PM.
__________________
Woof.
Misfit Toy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29 2014, 03:42 PM   #38
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Location: comfortably residing in the meat packing district
Re: Starship of the Federation President

Timo wrote: View Post
In TVH, we saw a random bunch of spectators, a major percentage of whom were soldiers in uniform as pointed out above.i
Plus at the end of the movie the "Council" included a 20th century whale expert.

Timo, there must have been a fast election.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29 2014, 03:59 PM   #39
EmperorTiberius
Captain
 
EmperorTiberius's Avatar
 
Re: Starship of the Federation President

Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
That's not what Star Trek is all about at all. It's Friday, so I'll imagine you've been drinking a bit.
Too far. Keep the personal crap OUT of this thread. You've earned an Infraction for Trolling. Relevant comments may be made via Private Message.

Timo wrote: View Post
Oh, go fuck yourself, you silly little man. And when you're back (remember to wash your hands), do face the facts.
Yes, you were provoked, but this probably wasn't the best way to handle it. Infraction for Flaming - comments to PM.

Eh? Trolling? Personal? Provocation? What in the world are you talking about?

It was a tongue-in-cheek remark about it being weekend and most people drinking and the poster not making much sense. There war nothing malicious about it, just jest. I nicely went over arguments without any sign of trolling, nor would you find trolling in my post history if you looked through my posts.

Of course, had I known that I would receive a low-class response full of personal frustration, and that the moderators here would treat a friendly joke as equal to multiple rule violations by one of their "Admiral" rank members, I wouldn't have said anything or visited the website at all.
EmperorTiberius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29 2014, 04:08 PM   #40
Misfit Toy
Caped Trek Mod
 
Misfit Toy's Avatar
 
Location: Transporter buffer
Re: Starship of the Federation President

EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
That's not what Star Trek is all about at all. It's Friday, so I'll imagine you've been drinking a bit.
Too far. Keep the personal crap OUT of this thread. You've earned an Infraction for Trolling. Relevant comments may be made via Private Message.

Timo wrote: View Post
Oh, go fuck yourself, you silly little man. And when you're back (remember to wash your hands), do face the facts.
Yes, you were provoked, but this probably wasn't the best way to handle it. Infraction for Flaming - comments to PM.

Eh? Trolling? Personal? Provocation? What in the world are you talking about?

It was a tongue-in-cheek remark about it being weekend and most people drinking and the poster not making much sense. There war nothing malicious about it, just jest. I nicely went over arguments without any sign of trolling, nor would you find trolling in my post history if you looked through my posts.

Of course, had I known that I would receive a low-class response full of personal frustration, and that the moderators here would treat a friendly joke as equal to multiple rule violations by one of their "Admiral" rank members, I wouldn't have said anything or visited the website at all.
Take your comments regarding the warning to PM - as for "low-class response", drop it. Now.
__________________
Woof.
Misfit Toy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29 2014, 06:45 PM   #41
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: Starship of the Federation President

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
In TVH, we saw a random bunch of spectators, a major percentage of whom were soldiers in uniform as pointed out above.i
Plus at the end of the movie the "Council" included a 20th century whale expert.

Timo, there must have been a fast election.

We could assume that session of the council was open to the public and Gillian was there to provide expert testimony into the events that Our Heroes had just gone through.

If I was a Starfleet officer allowed to be present at "The Trial of Admiral Kirk", I'd certainly grab a front row seat if I could!

The relatively low turnout of ambassadors could be ascribed to the major emergency the planet had just experienced, the session being of, say, a subset of the council rather than the council entire, or simply councillors feeling their presence wasn't needed at this proceeding.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29 2014, 08:06 PM   #42
JirinPanthosa
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Starship of the Federation President

DonIago wrote: View Post
We saw a Federation President in TVH, TUC and DS9.

Conversely, we never saw a "council of admirals". We see individual admirals (and sometimes more than one) issuing orders and such, but the hierarchy between them is never shown, though we do know there are Fleet Admirals (Morrow, Cartwright) as well as other (I don't think Kirk was ever a Fleet Admiral).
In Conspiracy, it's implied the Admirals Picard is meeting with constitute the leadership of the Federation.

TVH and TUC aren't fresh enough in my memory, but where is there a Federation president in DS9? All I recall is an Earth President.

In Star Trek it's never explicitly stated to what extent Federation law overrides planetary law of its member planets. We know that when you join the Federation, it absorbs your planet's military, and we know there are certain minimum standards of equality and human rights that are enforced and a Constitution. But beyond that local law is generally shown to be determined by each individual planet.
JirinPanthosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29 2014, 08:10 PM   #43
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Location: comfortably residing in the meat packing district
Re: Starship of the Federation President

DonIago wrote: View Post
We could assume that session of the council was open to the public and Gillian was there to provide expert testimony into the events that Our Heroes had just gone through.

If I was a Starfleet officer allowed to be present at "The Trial of Admiral Kirk", I'd certainly grab a front row seat if I could!.
If a heathy percentage of the people there were looky-loos, it seems unlikely that what we saw in the movie was a session of the Federation Council.

And if the Federation President was presiding a Starfleet court-martial, this would be further proof that he isn't very important, certainly would be proof that he apparently doesn't have much to do.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
... and we know there are certain minimum standards of equality and human rights ...
Interesting.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29 2014, 10:40 PM   #44
USS Triumphant
Rear Admiral
 
USS Triumphant's Avatar
 
Location: Go ahead, caller. I'm listening...
Re: Starship of the Federation President

T'Girl wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
... and we know there are certain minimum standards of equality and human rights ...
Interesting.

Calm down, there, Azetbur.
__________________
As the brilliant philosopher once said... Everybody, have fun tonight. Everybody, Wang Chung tonight.
USS Triumphant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29 2014, 11:18 PM   #45
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Starship of the Federation President

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
We saw a Federation President in TVH, TUC and DS9.

Conversely, we never saw a "council of admirals". We see individual admirals (and sometimes more than one) issuing orders and such, but the hierarchy between them is never shown, though we do know there are Fleet Admirals (Morrow, Cartwright) as well as other (I don't think Kirk was ever a Fleet Admiral).
In Conspiracy, it's implied the Admirals Picard is meeting with constitute the leadership of the Federation.

TVH and TUC aren't fresh enough in my memory, but where is there a Federation president in DS9? All I recall is an Earth President.

In Star Trek it's never explicitly stated to what extent Federation law overrides planetary law of its member planets. We know that when you join the Federation, it absorbs your planet's military, and we know there are certain minimum standards of equality and human rights that are enforced and a Constitution. But beyond that local law is generally shown to be determined by each individual planet.
Now it's been a while since I watched the episodes Homefront" and "Paradise Lost" But my memory is that it's that it's implied (if not stated) that Jaresh-Inyo is the Federation President.

As for whether or not Earth has a President we can't say for sure, "Demons" and "Terra Prime" infer that Earth has a Parlimentary style Government (Though that can not be stated with certainity) but even that doesn't preclude the existance of a President with the President acting as Head of State with a Prime Minister acting as the Head of Government.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:39 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.