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Old March 28 2014, 05:26 PM   #16
J.T.B.
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
HOWEVER, when President Bush was aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln, to use a relatively recent example, while the Navy S-3 Viking that carried him to the ship was designated Navy One, the whole bloody carrier did not get redesignated Navy One while he was aboard
Of course not, because "Air Force One" etc. are not names but callsigns for communications purposes, something that only became necessary in the post-WW2 era of voice-radio air traffic control. The only "names" of the current VC-25 aircraft that most people think of as Air Force One are SAM 28000 and SAM 29000.
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Old March 28 2014, 06:04 PM   #17
EmperorTiberius
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
I can understand fans coming up with something generic and unimaginative like "Starfleet 1", but official writers??? ffs....
There is a fine tradition of using this sort of designation - Air Force One, Marine One, etc - for the transport craft carrying the President - and the only reason I can think of that you would consider it "generic and unimaginative" rather than "functional and traditional" is that it originates with the United States. And while I'm a big fan of multiculturalism, myself, the Federation and Starfleet rather obviously DO pull at least some of their tradition from the U.S., and more specifically, the U.S. Navy, so it seems reasonable that at least some of the craft the POTUFP travels aboard would be designated things like Starfleet One and maybe even MACO One, although we haven't seen the latter.

HOWEVER, when President Bush was aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln, to use a relatively recent example, while the Navy S-3 Viking that carried him to the ship was designated Navy One, the whole bloody carrier did not get redesignated Navy One while he was aboard. It only seems appropriate to do that to aircraft or maybe boats, but not to ships. So I could see a shuttle carrying the POTUFP to and from the surface being designated Starfleet One, but I think the starship carrying them between systems would remain U.S.S. Whateveritsnameis, with the possible exception of a high speed transport shuttle assigned specifically to the executive branch, such as the three "Paris One" shuttles.

Personally, I kind of like the idea of the President making high speed jaunts in a retooled Defiant-class with the offensive armaments removed, additional defensive measures added, and the Romulans allowing the use of a cloak since it isn't a Starfleet vessel but one assigned to the office of the POTUFP. But that's just me.

So it never occurred to you that it would be "generic and unimaginative" because it simply is generic and unimaginative?

What should we call a Starship carrying a president? Let's see what US calls an airplane that has such duties...

What should Federation secretary of defense do during a break? Traditionally he goes duck hunting with a phaser...

While Starfleet uses some terms from Royal Navy and U.S. Navy, it does so in the context that makes sense. Gene did tons of stuff that was original and that tried to make 24th century more realistic instead of talking about tradition all the time.

Starships don't have call-signs, it's just an easy way out for the writers
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Old March 28 2014, 06:16 PM   #18
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

DonIago wrote: View Post
If you really think the Federation President lacks power I strongly recommend reading the later books in the A Time To... series or the more recent The Fall series.

Even a pro tempore Federation President has vast power to do things with limited or no involvement by the Council.
When we see him in DS9, he doesn't seem to have much power at all. The president is relying on good officers like Sisko and Picard to uphold the law. One bad apple almost deposed him and took over Earth.

Attempting to replicate US gov't into Star Trek universe simply doesn't rhyme with canon.
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Old March 28 2014, 06:20 PM   #19
T'Girl
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
HOWEVER, when President Bush was aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln, to use a relatively recent example, while the Navy S-3 Viking that carried him to the ship was designated Navy One, the whole bloody carrier did not get redesignated Navy One while he was aboard
Of course not, because "Air Force One" etc. are not names but callsigns for communications purposes, something that only became necessary in the post-WW2 era of voice-radio air traffic control. The only "names" of the current VC-25 aircraft that most people think of as Air Force One are SAM 28000 and SAM 29000.
But US Navy ships do use tactical voice radio call signs for voice communications in place of the ship's name for security purposes.

For inbetween ships, aircraft, spotters and other friendly units.

I think (occasionally I do) that USS Triumphant point was that the Abraham Lincoln did not change it's call sign to a unique one for whenever the president is aboard, while the president was actually aboard.

It would have kept the call sign that it was using prior to the president's arrival.

In the movie The Hunt for Red October, the USS Enterprise's call sign was "Yankee Starbase."

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/helpers/tvrc.htm

DonIago wrote: View Post
If you really think the Federation President lacks power I strongly recommend reading the later books in the A Time To... series or the more recent The Fall series.

Even a pro tempore Federation President has vast power to do things with limited or no involvement by the Council.
In the novel perhaps, but the Council's power exceeds the President in-universe on the show, we in fact rarely even hear of the President, suggesting he really isn't very important or powerful.

The majority of the power on display rests with the Council.

One example, while the President at one point self-importantly refers to himself as "the commander in chief," the bulk of the episodes make clear the it's the Council that give instructions to Starfleet, not the President.



Last edited by T'Girl; March 28 2014 at 06:35 PM.
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Old March 28 2014, 06:53 PM   #20
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

T'Girl wrote: View Post


DonIago wrote: View Post
If you really think the Federation President lacks power I strongly recommend reading the later books in the A Time To... series or the more recent The Fall series.

Even a pro tempore Federation President has vast power to do things with limited or no involvement by the Council.
In the novel perhaps, but the Council's power exceeds the President in-universe on the show, we in fact rarely even hear of the President, suggesting he really isn't very important or powerful.

The majority of the power on display rests with the Council.

One example, while the President at one point self-importantly refers to himself as "the commander in chief," the bulk of the episodes make clear the it's the Council that give instructions to Starfleet, not the President.


Which makes sense within the universe. Regent Kuzar from ST: Insurrection is not going to let some popularly elected president make major decisions that could affect them adversely. She'll go before the Council and there will be deliberations before a decision is made. This is how it works in movies, TNG, and DS9. We also see admirals and even captains make big, big decisions, that would perhaps require approval of a president or prime minister in today's democracies. Starfleet has tremendous power over politics of Federation
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Old March 28 2014, 07:09 PM   #21
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Just because the Council has N^2 powers doesn't mean that the President's own N powers aren't in and of themselves substantial.

Of course, we're somewhat assuming here since it's not like we have access to the Federation's governing documents.
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Old March 28 2014, 07:14 PM   #22
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
I always like to imagine that the Federation President's equivalent to Air Force One would be a Galaxy-class starship, whether or not it's operated by Starfleet. To me, that ship design captures the majesty and power, yet peaceable nature, of the Federation as a state.

The novels have established that any Starfleet vessel carrying the Federation President carries the designation Starfleet One. However, the President has a dedicated civilian ship called Paris One that is also often used. As security for the Federation President is provided by the Protection Detail of the Federation Security Agency, it seems probable that the FSA operates Paris One.

Paris One seems to be the default transport, but either one may be used depending on the situation.

The class of Paris One has never been established, but, again, I like to imagine that it is a Galaxy-class starship.

For interplanetary transportation within a single star system, the Federation President has three dedicated shuttlecraft based out of the Palais de la Concorde (the Federation capitol): the al-Rashid, the T'Maran, and the sh'Rothress, each named after an early Federation President (Haroun al-Rashid of Earth, T'Maran of Vulcan, and Avaranthi sh'Rothress of Andor). The three shuttles always travel together in variable-order flight patterns to help confuse potential observers as to which shuttle the President is aboard, as a security precaution. The class of the shuttles has never been established, but I like to imagine that they are Type-11 shuttlecraft, like the one seen in INS.
Are you serious?

I can understand fans coming up with something generic and unimaginative like "Starfleet 1", but official writers??? ffs....

It appears Star Trek universe is getting as bad as Star Wars cluster"freak".

What a disappointment, especially when you consider that Federation president seems to be a weakling, a small ceremonial position like the German president with some, but limited powers. The Council has real power, and Starfleet Command even more.

In my opinion, Fleet Admiral that is the Chief of Starfleet is probably the most powerful person in Federation. That was Nechayev last time I checked, always traveling aboard an Excelsior, but it wouldn't surprise me if the writers nowadays have a Jem'Hadar that we saw that one time in that one episode as the Fleet Admiral.

EDIT: This is not a knock on any individual writer; they all seem to be genuine fans and love Trek, but sometimes it seems like they really take it too far or look for the easy way out
You really don't know what you're talking about. It's a marginal detail what the ship carrying the President is called. That's really not an indication of the quality of a story -- it's just a piece of background info. To decide to evaluate all sorts of novels based on such a small thing is just silly.

And, no, the Federation President is not ceremonial. "Paradise Lost" (DSN) established that the Federation President is the commander-in-chief of the Federation's armed forces. Star Trek VI established that he or she is in control of the Federation's foreign policy.

It is fair to conclude that there's more sharing of power between the Council and the President in a lot of matters than there is in the modern world in the presidential system the U.S. has. But that's not the same as it being a ceremonial office.

The novel Articles of the Federation by Keith R.A. DeCandido (TrekBBS's very own KRAD) establishes that the Federation President presides over sessions of the full Council, and may preside over sessions of the various sub-councils (committees); he or she often presides over meetings of the Security Council, for instance. The President usually solicits the participation and counsel of Federation Councillors from the relevant Member worlds or with the relevant expertise when making a decision. The President also nominates all members of the sub-councils, with the full Council then voting to confirm or reject sub-council appointments. So it's a sort of hybrid of the U.S. and Westminster systems.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
The thought that a Galaxy Class would just sit in Earth orbit waiting for the President to need to go somewhere borders on the absurd. Something much more modest would do nicely.
Plenty of options would do nicely -- but it's not like the Federation lacks for resources. The Federation enjoys such an abundance of resources that having a Galaxy-class starship permanently dedicated to presidential travel seems to me like it really wouldn't have much opportunity cost, so I see no reason not to use a bit of overkill.

(My personal hypothesis is that the presidential starship would need to be a bit larger in the event that it is called upon to evacuate and house the entire Federation government -- the President and his/her staff, the full Council and their staffs, and the Federation Supreme Court and their staffs. This, again, is just me hypothesizing.)

For trip around the interior areas of the Federation he likely wouldn't even require an escort.
I don't agree with this at all. Traveling within Federation space does not mean that there won't be someone capable of targeting Paris One or Starfleet One for attack. Interstellar borders are much more permeable than land borders are today, and there's no guarantee that there won't be some deranged Federation citizen out to kill the President.

If I'm the Director of the Federation Security Agency, I'm gonna want at least three Defiant-class starships permanently attached to defending Paris One wherever she goes.

Timo wrote: View Post
If Paris One exists because the President doesn't want to be seen using Starfleet transportation, then she probably in no way resembles Starfleet vessels, and in fact may go to rather ridiculous lengths to look radically different.
A completely fair interpretation. Again, the class of Paris One has never been established in the novels; that she's a Galaxy-class starship is just my own personal hypothesis.

...Wouldn't Type 11 be awfully small and cramped for the President and his/her/its supposed entourage?
Well, I imagined the presidential shuttles to be Type 11 because Type 11 are the largest possible shuttlecraft. If you re-watch INS, they're quite a bit bigger than, say, the Type 6 or 7 shuttles. Anything larger and we're no longer in the realm of shuttlecraft, but of things like runabouts or captains' yachts.

The novels do make it clear the the presidential shuttles are small enough that the president's entourage needs to divide themselves between the three shuttles. These craft are only used for short in-system trips -- say, if the President needs to give a speech on Luna for something. The full staff doesn't accompany him or her.

You can't easily park Type 11 anywhere in a city anyway,
I don't know why you would say that. The Type 11 shuttlecraft looks like it would fit comfortably onto most buildings' roofs, and I imagine that 24th century cities are built with storage space for small personal craft in mind much the way cities today are built with parking space for cars in mind.

Though, really, the easiest thing to assume is that the presidential shuttle simply stays in orbit while the President and his/her staff beam down.

EmperorTiberius wrote: View Post
And while I'm a big fan of multiculturalism, myself, the Federation and Starfleet rather obviously DO pull at least some of their tradition from the U.S., and more specifically, the U.S. Navy, so it seems reasonable that at least some of the craft the POTUFP travels aboard would be designated things like Starfleet One and maybe even MACO One, although we haven't seen the latter.
Well, there's really no evidence that the MACOs still exist; when they did, they were a United Earth military, not a Federation military. Personally, I've always just assumed the MACOs were absorbed into the Federation Starfleet when the Federation was founded, same as the Andorian Imperial Guard, Vulcan defense fleet, and United Earth Starfleet. This is the route TrekBBS's Christopher chose to go with in Rise of the Federation: A Choice of Futures, wherein MACOs are described as having been absorbed into the new Federation Starfleet, being folded into Starfleet Security along with security officers from the Andorian Guard.

HOWEVER, when President Bush was aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln, to use a relatively recent example, while the Navy S-3 Viking that carried him to the ship was designated Navy One, the whole bloody carrier did not get redesignated Navy One while he was aboard. It only seems appropriate to do that to aircraft or maybe boats, but not to ships.
I mean, we're essentially running into the fact that starships are not truly ships, nor truly aircraft, but rather share some of the characteristics of both. We do know that Starfleet vessels sometimes use call signs; it's not unreasonable to assume that their normal call sign is just their standard name, but that they adopt a special call sign if the President her/himself is aboard. Such a passenger would by definition make the ship far more important than its sister vessels and oblige it to change its entire mission priorities.

Personally, I kind of like the idea of the President making high speed jaunts in a retooled Defiant-class with the offensive armaments removed, additional defensive measures added, and the Romulans allowing the use of a cloak since it isn't a Starfleet vessel but one assigned to the office of the POTUFP. But that's just me.
Not a bad hypothesis, though I don't think the Romulans would ever allow the president's ship to cloak; they only allowed the Defiant to cloak because they thought it in their best interest to be able to counter the Dominion.

My reason for choosing the Galaxy class was that I think it looks powerful but not hostile -- the round aesthetic to me reads as peaceable and diplomatic rather than militaristic. I would be concerned about what kind of message using an explicitly battle-driven ship like the Defiant class might send, but I completely see where it would have its advantages in terms of keeping the President safe from potential threats.

So it never occurred to you that it would be "generic and unimaginative" because it simply is generic and unimaginative?

What should we call a Starship carrying a president? Let's see what US calls an airplane that has such duties...

What should Federation secretary of defense do during a break? Traditionally he goes duck hunting with a phaser...
It was Vice President Dick Cheney who went duck hunting and accidentally shot his friend, not Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. (As a very witty fellow on the TrekBBS whose name I can't recall said at the time: "I completely believe him when he says it was an accident. If he had meant to kill his friend, he would have used his fangs.")

T'Girl wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
If you really think the Federation President lacks power I strongly recommend reading the later books in the A Time To... series or the more recent The Fall series.

Even a pro tempore Federation President has vast power to do things with limited or no involvement by the Council.
In the novel perhaps, but the Council's power exceeds the President in-universe on the show,
This has not been canonically established. The most reasonable thing we can say is that the relationship between the President and the Council is unclear. On the one hand, we do get situations like "The Defector" (TNG), wherein the Council is described as issuing orders to Starfleet. On the other hand, we get episodes like "Homefront/Paradise Lost," where the President is established to be the commander-in-chief of the Federation's armed forces, and Star Trek VI, where the President controls the foreign policy agenda and orders Starfleet to or not to engage in specific missions.

So the canonical evidence is unclear; that's why the novels featured a system wherein power is more closely shared between the President and Council than we tend to see in the U.S. system.
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Old March 28 2014, 07:22 PM   #23
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

And of course, it may be that the President presides over the Council. Whenever Starfleet clears something with "the Council", it's essentially phoning the President's office, and his cabinet is what is known as the Council.

Onscreen, we lack any and all evidence of what the Council really looks like. We hear it makes decisions, but we never hear of anybody who would be member. We never see a session or an election.

As for the thread subject, we might want to ask whether the President travels at all. After Khitomer, we haven't heard of such a thing happening, either. Why would a powerful leader go to places when he/she/it can call places, or order places to come to him/her/it? The UFP operates even internally by sending Ambassadors, Commissioners and other representatives with broad powers.

Granted, the UFP President is the only position in the Trek universe known to be attained through election. We don't know how or by whom, but possibly it takes touring to raise the necessary votes.

If the President does travel, then I'm all for "generic and unimaginative", because that's what Star Trek is all about: bringing the 1960s, the 1980s, the 1990s, and occasionally the 1950s and 1930s to outer space. It needs to be recognizable, it needs to be evocative of historical precedent. In-universe, we can simply say the UFP goes for retro big time, just like we do today...

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Old March 28 2014, 07:52 PM   #24
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Sci wrote: View Post

You really don't know what you're talking about. It's a marginal detail what the ship carrying the President is called. That's really not an indication of the quality of a story -- it's just a piece of background info. To decide to evaluate all sorts of novels based on such a small thing is just silly.

And, no, the Federation President is not ceremonial. "Paradise Lost" (DSN) established that the Federation President is the commander-in-chief of the Federation's armed forces. Star Trek VI established that he or she is in control of the Federation's foreign policy.

.
What's silly is that you think that background info and setting of a story in not important.
Name like Starfleet One takes you right out of the story and suspension of disbelief.

None of those movies establish that he has significant power at all.

Instead of creating an original setting based of what's seen on screen, they decided to copy entire American system down to the name of a plane....brilliant.
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Old March 28 2014, 08:04 PM   #25
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Timo wrote: View Post

If the President does travel, then I'm all for "generic and unimaginative", because that's what Star Trek is all about: bringing the 1960s, the 1980s, the 1990s, and occasionally the 1950s and 1930s to outer space. It needs to be recognizable, it needs to be evocative of historical precedent. In-universe, we can simply say the UFP goes for retro big time, just like we do today...

Timo Saloniemi

That's not what Star Trek is all about at all. It's Friday, so I'll imagine you've been drinking a bit. Star Trek has never been generic and unimaginative. Of course it's influenced by the time it is written, but it was never about that time in space. Granted there were shades of it in TOS, but even then it was vastly different with black, Russian, women crewmen, various social issues taken on, great design for the time etc.

If Gene had decide to go with tradition, Enterprise would have been a flying saucer, 6 white men would have been on the bridge, and Kirk would have to contact the commodore flying in tight formation with him for every decision he had to make.

And Federation has never been retro big time at all. Things like rank have been brought through, and even then, naval ranks. There is no sign of an earth air force or army tradition.

To put it in perspective, imagine a science fiction writer in the 1500's writing about 20th century. He decides to copy everything from his current time, Kings/Queens/Knights/peasants working the fields.. no imagination.. . How boring would that be?

Or the US President in the 50's, when they were thinking of call sign for Air Force One, decides to go with hard core tradition and he calls the airplane "Blueskin" like George Washington called his horse....

400 years of time has to be taken into account when writing these stories and setting details are very important.
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Old March 28 2014, 08:28 PM   #26
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

We have very little idea of how the Federation Government works as that is not really what Star Trek is about. And the few glimpses we have seen have to serve the needs of the story.

In DSN's "Paradise Lost" story, I don;t recall any mention about the Earth Prime Minister being consulated, does that mean he wasn't consulted off screen or that the Federation President has direct power over members world governments?
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Old March 28 2014, 08:39 PM   #27
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Timo wrote: View Post

Onscreen, we lack any and all evidence of what the Council really looks like. We hear it makes decisions, but we never hear of anybody who would be member. We never see a session or an election.

Timo Saloniemi
I think it's generally assumed that we saw the Federation Council in session in TVH. If you believe otherwise I'd like to hear your case.
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Old March 28 2014, 09:21 PM   #28
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

Is it ever established in a canon source that there exists a Federation president? In the TV shows we always see Federation leadership as a council of admirals.

Based on what we know of the Federation, each planet has their own sovereign leadership, and if there exists an individual who is 'Leader of the whole Federation' he only has the 'Commander in Chief of the armed forces' role and no litigious power.

Edit: Is the president we see in Paradise Lost Federation president? He seemed to me to be only Earth president. Starfleet leadership is usually implied to be a military meritocracy.
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Old March 28 2014, 09:22 PM   #29
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

We saw a Federation President in TVH, TUC and DS9.

Conversely, we never saw a "council of admirals". We see individual admirals (and sometimes more than one) issuing orders and such, but the hierarchy between them is never shown, though we do know there are Fleet Admirals (Morrow, Cartwright) as well as other (I don't think Kirk was ever a Fleet Admiral).
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Old March 28 2014, 10:58 PM   #30
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Re: Starship of the Federation President

That's not what Star Trek is all about at all. It's Friday, so I'll imagine you've been drinking a bit.
Oh, go fuck yourself, you silly little man. And when you're back (remember to wash your hands), do face the facts. Trek has always been about the Navy in space, because nothing else would serve the purpose. Every little detail is derivative: the rank structure, the mission, the formalities, the parlance, indeed the terminology. On that detail is built imaginative drama, with liberties from reality and senses; without the foundation, it would convince nobody to watch another episode.

It may not always be the US Navy, as the Royal Navy is a strong dramatic precedent - for fiction and fact alike (as militaries by natural default are derivative organizations). Any deviation from the 1960s USN norm takes us even further back in history, rather than forward in time.

400 years of time has to be taken into account when writing these stories and setting details are very important.
Oh, the writers do take into account the years 1560-1960 all right. But that suffices; too much made-up terminology will just alienate the audience. And alienation and scifi only go together in the written media (I warmly recommend the recent works of fellow Finn Hannu Rajaniemi here); the visual sort is already too rich in fantastic splendor to accommodate more than a token dose of odd terminology.

I think it's generally assumed that we saw the Federation Council in session in TVH. If you believe otherwise I'd like to hear your case.
In TVH, we saw a random bunch of spectators, a major percentage of whom were soldiers in uniform as pointed out above. Is the Council a demos, perhaps - a gathering of warriors? The two people speaking were Ambassadors by explicit title, and the function of the assembly was to act as a court of (military) law, or at least to hear the verdict of one. Nothing at all connects these scenes to the Federation Council as such.

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