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Old March 23 2014, 05:33 PM   #31
HIjol
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

Clark Terrell wrote: View Post
HIjol wrote: View Post
Agree with Cyke as far as the MORE important role of Captain, and I am imagining Star Fleet would not give a Star Ship to a captain who is going to call in for permission for every little thing...
Oh, but they did.
How so?
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Old March 23 2014, 06:17 PM   #32
Clark Terrell
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

HIjol wrote: View Post
How so?
The USS Grissom is a type of Federation starship, Oberth-class to be exact. JT Esteban was the vessel's commanding officer. He notified Starfleet every time every time something happened during his survey of Genesis and was prepared to ask their permission to beam his landing party and the child-Captain Spock aboard when Kruge's men destroyed his ship.
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Old March 23 2014, 07:07 PM   #33
Cyke101
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

I half-expected expected Estaban to ask Starfleet for permission to raise the shields.

(Okay, now I'm just being mean)
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Old March 23 2014, 09:07 PM   #34
Clark Terrell
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
I half-expected expected Estaban to ask Starfleet for permission to raise the shields.

(Okay, now I'm just being mean)
Not at all. I said the same thing earlier in this thread. He ordered his crew to stand by for evasive because he needed Starfleet's permission first.
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Old March 24 2014, 02:31 AM   #35
HIjol
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

Not to be an "Argue-Andy", but was his constant communicating with Star Fleet more,in line with the secrecy, sensitivity and nature of the mission?...maybe I need to go back and look again at the kinds of missions and decisions the Captains make...I said it before and I will say it again...it is GREAT to be on such a knowledgeable forum concerning something so important to me...I thank you, Cyke and Terrell, and all the rest...
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Old March 24 2014, 02:36 AM   #36
Clark Terrell
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

HIjol wrote: View Post
Not to be an "Argue-Andy", but was his constant communicating with Star Fleet more,in line with the secrecy, sensitivity and nature of the mission?...maybe I need to go back and look again at the kinds of missions and decisions the Captains make...I said it before and I will say it again...it is GREAT to be on such a knowledgeable forum concerning something so important to me...I thank you, Cyke and Terrell, and all the rest...
You're welcome! To answer your question, it's not clear if that's why he was doing it or not. As Esteban appears only in The Search for Spock, it's impossible to know how he behaved during other assignments that weren't as sensitive.
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Old March 24 2014, 06:56 AM   #37
Infern0
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

Then you have Janeway who ran her ship like a crazed dictator, rules be damned.
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Old March 24 2014, 04:04 PM   #38
Jedi_Master
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

Has someone actually done a comparative analysis of how many times Picard consulted Starfleet command before making a decision or was given direct instructions from Starfleet command versus how many times Kirk consulted Starfleet command before making a decision or was given direct instructions from Starfleet command?

I think the perception is that Picard was apt to ask for instruction or to follow orders, but is that the reality?
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Old March 24 2014, 04:18 PM   #39
Cyke101
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

Clark Terrell wrote: View Post
Cyke101 wrote: View Post
I half-expected expected Estaban to ask Starfleet for permission to raise the shields.

(Okay, now I'm just being mean)
Not at all. I said the same thing earlier in this thread. He ordered his crew to stand by for evasive because he needed Starfleet's permission first.
Could you imagine the other end of that line, the crew at Starfleet communications?

"Sir, it's the Grissom again."
"*Sigh* what does Esteban want now?"
"He wants to know if flushing the toilet will harm the ecosystem of Genesis. He's saying again that he wants to do everything by the book."
"Oh, I can tell him what he to do with that book."

HIjol wrote: View Post
Not to be an "Argue-Andy", but was his constant communicating with Star Fleet more,in line with the secrecy, sensitivity and nature of the mission?...maybe I need to go back and look again at the kinds of missions and decisions the Captains make...I said it before and I will say it again...it is GREAT to be on such a knowledgeable forum concerning something so important to me...I thank you, Cyke and Terrell, and all the rest...
You go on right ahead and be an Argue-Andy. It at least gives the rest of us something to think about

Jedi_Master wrote: View Post
Has someone actually done a comparative analysis of how many times Picard consulted Starfleet command before making a decision or was given direct instructions from Starfleet command versus how many times Kirk consulted Starfleet command before making a decision or was given direct instructions from Starfleet command?

I think the perception is that Picard was apt to ask for instruction or to follow orders, but is that the reality?
I think this is a fair question to ask -- perception vs. actual stats. It might just be that Picard has the advantage of 4 more seasons to talk to Starfleet. But then again, we have contextual opinion like Spock calling Kirk's brand as "cowboy diplomacy", Picard and Janeway talking about how regulations were looser in Kirk's time, and even temporal investigators in DS9 listing Kirk's rap sheet. Kirk himself echoed similar sentiments when he talked to Picard in Generations.

It *would* be funny if it turned out that Kirk talked about carrying a big stick, but actually spoke to Starfleet more. But then again, his disregard for rules and regulations were cemented once he stole the Enterprise. That's guts.
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Old March 24 2014, 04:25 PM   #40
Jedi_Master
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

I do recall Kirk being in conflict with a Federation Ambassador on numerous occasions. It is also possible that because of the increased budget and better tech, that TNG could SHOW Picard talking to Starfleet Command, whereas TOS would have Uhura make a comment along the lines of "Starfleet says do this or that".
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Old March 24 2014, 05:28 PM   #41
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

Clark Terrell wrote: View Post
HIjol wrote: View Post
Not to be an "Argue-Andy", but was his constant communicating with Star Fleet more,in line with the secrecy, sensitivity and nature of the mission?...maybe I need to go back and look again at the kinds of missions and decisions the Captains make...I said it before and I will say it again...it is GREAT to be on such a knowledgeable forum concerning something so important to me...I thank you, Cyke and Terrell, and all the rest...
You're welcome! To answer your question, it's not clear if that's why he was doing it or not. As Esteban appears only in The Search for Spock, it's impossible to know how he behaved during other assignments that weren't as sensitive.
I think it's reasonable to assume that Starfleet required constant updates on the status of the Genesis survey. But having said that, Esteban struck me as one of those "politician" type officers, and would probably have been on fast track to the admiralty.
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Old March 25 2014, 07:54 PM   #42
MacLeod
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

Of course given that by the time of the Grissom expedition to survey the Genesis Planet, it had become somewhat of a controversey. So Esteban might have been under orders to check with HQ before doing anything which could have the potential to make the contrvoersey any worse than it already was.
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Old March 25 2014, 08:07 PM   #43
Levi
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

With all the compairison with how many times Kirk and Picard contacted StarFleet for orders, brings up a point to mind.
Wasn't Kirk supposed to be a rebel type? And Picard was a lot more, strict, or, by the books?
I would think for these reasons alone the amount of times they each had contacted Command for orders would be greatly affected by this.
Kirk was reprimanded plenty of times for things like disobeying orders was he not?
And Picard was considered to be one of my most distinguished Captains in StarFleet?
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Old March 25 2014, 10:30 PM   #44
C.E. Evans
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

Levi wrote: View Post
With all the compairison with how many times Kirk and Picard contacted StarFleet for orders, brings up a point to mind.
Wasn't Kirk supposed to be a rebel type?
That came after TOS, starting with TWOK. During the actual series, Kirk was frequently toting the company line. He knew Starfleet regulations like the back of his hand and knew how far he could go with them.
Kirk was reprimanded plenty of times for things like disobeying orders was he not?
That was a retcon in later Trek productions, playing up a post-TWOK idea of Kirk as suddenly Starfleet's bad boy, when he was more a rule-follower than rule-breaker in the series. Sure, Kirk made judgment calls at times, but so did other captains.

NuKirk, on the other hand, well...
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Old March 25 2014, 11:01 PM   #45
Levi
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Levi wrote: View Post
With all the compairison with how many times Kirk and Picard contacted StarFleet for orders, brings up a point to mind.
Wasn't Kirk supposed to be a rebel type?
That came after TOS, starting with TWOK. During the actual series, Kirk was frequently toting the company line. He knew Starfleet regulations like the back of his hand and knew how far he could go with them.
Kirk was reprimanded plenty of times for things like disobeying orders was he not?
That was a retcon in later Trek productions, playing up a post-TWOK idea of Kirk as suddenly Starfleet's bad boy, when he was more a rule-follower than rule-breaker in the series. Sure, Kirk made judgment calls at times, but so did other captains.

NuKirk, on the other hand, well...
Makes sense. I haven't seen the whole TOS yet. Just started so I'm sure I will see myself.
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