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Old March 22 2014, 05:01 PM   #16
Levi
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

As there were less captains during TOS, they had more responsibilities. Also being in Deep Space and not able to contact home often made it more important for Captains to have more control over decidions.
With the expansion of StarFleet, more Captains make Admiral, and more officers make Captain.
There are probably some Captains who have more authority then others and some are giving more leeway as well.
It may also be that the responsibilities have not changed for Captains, just their ability to contact command for advice.
Kick might not have contacted command for advice as much as Picard, but Kirk also got into trouble a lot more as well! Picard may have as well had he not been able to contact Command as often?
I dont think the rank is becoming less important and just StarFleet itself is filling out into its full setting.
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Old March 22 2014, 05:47 PM   #17
Clark Terrell
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

HIjol wrote: View Post
Agree with Cyke as far as the MORE important role of Captain, and I am imagining Star Fleet would not give a Star Ship to a captain who is going to call in for permission for every little thing...
Oh, but they did.
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Old March 22 2014, 08:29 PM   #18
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

I see Esteban as someone with a minor command, a pure science ship and he himself likely came up through the ranks as a scientist.

It's not clear if his particular ship even mounted any weapons, he spent his career within the inner core of the Federation doing surveys. The thing with Genesis gave him a chance to showboat a little bit. His calling Starfleet Command twice on the same day, or even the same month, was unusual.

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Old March 22 2014, 08:40 PM   #19
C.E. Evans
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

In hindsight, it may be a case that Esteban was under orders to contact Starfleet when anything unusual was discovered on the Genesis Planet (it still was technically part of the controversial Genesis Project, IMO).
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Old March 22 2014, 08:43 PM   #20
Clark Terrell
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
I see Esteban as someone with a minor command, a pure science ship and he himself likely came up through the ranks as a scientist.

It's not clear if his particular ship even mounted any weapons, he spent his career within the inner core of the Federation doing surveys. The thing with Genesis gave him a chance to showboat a little bit. His calling Starfleet Command twice on the same day, or even the same month, was unusual.

And in fairness, I think he was probably on a tight leash anyway because of the controversy surrounding Genesis and wanted to be sure he didn't do anything sideways that could blow back on him or his crew.
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Old March 22 2014, 09:09 PM   #21
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
TNG is based more on modern times where communications have made home a quick transmission away, thereby allowing admirals a way to peer over captains shoulders and captains pretty much have to clear really important decisions with their superiors.
This may be one of the reasons 24th century Star Trek never excited me that much-- besides the switching of command and services colors, commodore ranks disappearing, and an android who somehow made everyone forget about androids existing 78 years earlier. The whole style of Star Trek changed, though I guess we have to give Roddenberry the credit for that.
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Old March 22 2014, 09:21 PM   #22
Nebusj
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
I see Esteban as someone with a minor command, a pure science ship and he himself likely came up through the ranks as a scientist.

It's not clear if his particular ship even mounted any weapons, he spent his career within the inner core of the Federation doing surveys.
If the Grissom didn't carry weapons then Kirk's wondering whether she'll ``join us or will she fire on us?'' gets to be pretty rhetorical.
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Old March 22 2014, 11:56 PM   #23
T'Girl
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

^ Good point.

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Old March 23 2014, 12:43 AM   #24
Push The Button
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

Nebusj wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
I see Esteban as someone with a minor command, a pure science ship and he himself likely came up through the ranks as a scientist.

It's not clear if his particular ship even mounted any weapons, he spent his career within the inner core of the Federation doing surveys.
If the Grissom didn't carry weapons then Kirk's wondering whether she'll ``join us or will she fire on us?'' gets to be pretty rhetorical.
We can assume that Grissom had some kind of weaponry on board. You would want the ability to destroy something like an asteroid if you needed to.
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Old March 23 2014, 04:00 AM   #25
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

^ If Grissom had weapons, then why does Esteban just say "Stand by for evasive" when the Klingon ship attacks? Surely Esteban isn't so clinically thick as to not realize he can shoot back?

And for that matter, why do they have to "stand by" for evasive? Shouldn't they just, you know, EVADE?
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Old March 23 2014, 04:02 AM   #26
Clark Terrell
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ If Grissom had weapons, then why does Esteban just say "Stand by for evasive" when the Klingon ship attacks? Surely Esteban isn't so clinically thick as to not realize he can SHOOT BACK??
Esteban's style is one of caution to the extreme. Everything he does is with the intention of avoiding problems, be they problems caused by bending Starfleet regulations or problems imposed by beaming recovered Vulcan Starfleet officers onto his ship. Aggression of any kind--even that meant to save his ship and crew--is something he's apparently not capable of.

As to why he gave a stand-by order, it's because he had to get permission from Starfleet first.
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Old March 23 2014, 04:04 AM   #27
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

^ If that's the case - if Esteban was truly such a wuss as to not be capable of any kind of aggression, however justified - then he had no business with a command of his own, even a small ship like that one.
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Old March 23 2014, 04:13 AM   #28
Clark Terrell
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ If that's the case - if Esteban was truly such a wuss as to not be capable of any kind of aggression, however justified - then he had no business with a command of his own, even a small ship like that one.
Well, given that he was assigned to the Genesis planet by the same people who failed to notify Terrell and his crew that Ceti Alpha V was inhabited by criminals and that the system should be avoided at all costs, it's not surprising that such a weak-willed person was entrusted with handling a delicate situation with far-reaching scientific and political repercussions.

For all we know, Esteban's absolute insistence on following Starfleet regulations was probably the reason he was picked in the first place. Morrow wanted someone he knew wouldn't do anything outside the boundaries of his position. Had he sent Kirk and the Enterprise back to the planet--which actually would have made the most sense in terms of keeping the situation contained--it's likely Kirk would have manufactured his own solution to whatever problem's cropped up, making Morrow's life more difficult than it would have been had Grissom completed its survey of the planet.
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Old March 23 2014, 04:29 AM   #29
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

^ True dat.

Still, I at least have to wonder why Grissom wasn't simply given an escort vessel, one captained by a seasoned military veteran who WOULD have fought back. That ship could have been given strict orders to stay out of the way while Esteban completed his survey, but if any hostile vessels had turned up, they'd be ready to step in and fire back.
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Old March 23 2014, 04:37 AM   #30
Clark Terrell
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Re: The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ True dat.

Still, I at least have to wonder why Grissom wasn't simply given an escort vessel, one captained by a seasoned military veteran who WOULD have fought back. That ship could have been given strict orders to stay out of the way while Esteban completed his survey, but if any hostile vessels had turned up, they'd be ready to step in and fire back.
This is where I think the loss of Reliant hurt the most. Terrell and his crew were already read-in on the Genesis project and could have completed the survey themselves. Plus, Reliant had the firepower to defend itself against a Klingon Bird-of-Prey.

Non-canon materials cite Terrell as being captain of the Academy wrestling team (much as Sisko was). Something tells me he'd have run Kruge out of Federation space as soon as he saw the BOP on sensors.
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