RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,527
Posts: 5,512,537
Members: 25,138
Currently online: 559
Newest member: Bazzzz85

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Dec 26

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 13 2014, 02:18 PM   #1
Orphalesion
Lieutenant Commander
 
Orphalesion's Avatar
 
Should they just have ditched uniforms and protocol?

Hey,

One thing about Voyage I just can't get over with is that in Season 4 they got rid of Kes instead of useless wallpaper like Harry Kim, so I like to every now and then think that there is an alternative universe where Seven of Nine replaced Harry instead of Kes.
And the other day it came to me that Harry leaving instead of Kes would have meant that of 9 main characters, 3 would have not worn uniform (Kes, Neelix and Seven). That's a third.

Then I thought; why did they even bother to continue to wear uniforms, especially since quite a chunk of the crew was originally Marquis, so people who had left Starfleet or had never been in Sarfleet to begin with.
They were stranded in Delta Quadrant, a lifetime away from any protocol or regulations and Voyager was their home now. I think it would have made sense to portray them slowly drifting towards stopping to wear their uniforms and start wearing what they could scrunch together/trade for with alien worlds (remember we can't replicate everything, energy resources and all)
Likewise I think they should have slowly start calling each other by their first names, even Janeway (just like the crew of the Equinox did)

I understand that out of universe the uniforms were an important part of brand recognition, but in universe they stopped making sense pretty quickly.

What do others think?
Orphalesion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2014, 03:03 PM   #2
Shazam!
Rear Admiral
 
Shazam!'s Avatar
 
Re: Should they just have ditched uniforms and protocol?

Voyager need much more than superficial changes to uniform. It's a neat idea and something I'd advocate but it wouldn't solve the shows ills.
Shazam! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2014, 03:06 PM   #3
Shazam!
Rear Admiral
 
Shazam!'s Avatar
 
Re: Should they just have ditched uniforms and protocol?

Oh, and ditching Kes in favour of Kim was just mind boggling and was a purely political/business decision that was to the detriment of the show creatively.
Shazam! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2014, 03:29 PM   #4
AgentDreidel
Fleet Captain
 
AgentDreidel's Avatar
 
Location: AgentCoop...Chillin' in the Black Lodge since June 10th, 1991
View AgentDreidel's Twitter Profile
Re: Should they just have ditched uniforms and protocol?

Ditching the uniforms would have symbolized (in-universe, anyway) that they were ditching Starfleet, and-by extension- the ideals of the Federation in favor of a "me first" mentality. I don't think that's the kind of show that the creators wanted to make, and (speaking only for myself) not the kind of show I wanted to see. I very much enjoyed watching Janeway trying to balance Federation ideals against the immediate needs of her crew.

Also, I found Kes and Harry more or less equally boring, so for me it's "six of one, half a dozen of the other".
AgentDreidel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2014, 04:45 PM   #5
Sleigh Ride
Commodore
 
Sleigh Ride's Avatar
 
Location: A Circle Has No End; HIjol
Re: Should they just have ditched uniforms and protocol?

Did not like Kes all that much, and maybe the shadow of Sulu was at play in the decision.

I think with the devolution and distance you posit, they would have ended up like Toombs and his crew from the Riddick movies. Interesting, but like Agent Driedel says above, probably not the series they wanted to make.
__________________
"If man is to survive, he will delight in the essential differences between men and between cultures. He will learn that differences in ideas and attitudes are a part of life's exciting variety, not something to fear" Gene Roddenberry
Sleigh Ride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2014, 05:00 PM   #6
Stephen!
Captain
 
Stephen!'s Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: Should they just have ditched uniforms and protocol?

Orphalesion wrote: View Post
Likewise I think they should have slowly start calling each other by their first names, even Janeway (just like the crew of the Equinox did)
They did, to some extent.
Stephen! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2014, 06:32 PM   #7
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Ferguson, Missouri, USA
Re: Should they just have ditched uniforms and protocol?

I think ditching the uniforms would only have happened if the U.S.S. Voyager ceased to be a Starfleet vessel and became a purely civilian one.

Like the S.S. Minnow...
__________________
"Don't sweat the small stuff--it makes you small-minded..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2014, 08:22 PM   #8
JirinPanthosa
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Should they just have ditched uniforms and protocol?

AgentDreidel wrote: View Post
Ditching the uniforms would have symbolized (in-universe, anyway) that they were ditching Starfleet, and-by extension- the ideals of the Federation in favor of a "me first" mentality. I don't think that's the kind of show that the creators wanted to make, and (speaking only for myself) not the kind of show I wanted to see. I very much enjoyed watching Janeway trying to balance Federation ideals against the immediate needs of her crew.

Also, I found Kes and Harry more or less equally boring, so for me it's "six of one, half a dozen of the other".
They could have ditched the superficialities of protocol without ditching the ideals of the Federation. I would have liked to see that kind of show more, but the network just wanted another Starfleet show with no greater commentary on their isolation.

It worked beautifully when DS9 called into question the ideals of human advancement and morality when the survival of their civilization was at risk. Why couldn't it have worked for Voyager to question the necessity of protocol when they were isolated for (What they thought would be) seventy years? Ditching uniforms doesn't mean going full Equinox.
JirinPanthosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2014, 08:28 PM   #9
Orphalesion
Lieutenant Commander
 
Orphalesion's Avatar
 
Re: Should they just have ditched uniforms and protocol?

^ This. Not wearing uniforms and following protocol to a t does not automatically entail "It's all about me! We are space pirates now!!" It would have emphasized their isolation even more. If I was stranded for a lifetime I know the first thing I would want to ditch is stifling protocol. The ship was not their workplace anymore and the crew no longer just colleagues. The Voyager was their home and their crew their family, so informality would have been a logical result.

And Kes at the very least had an interesting concept and was useful whenever they cared to write for her. What did Harry ever do? Stand there grinning stupidly, getting killed and playing his clarinet. Yay :-/
Orphalesion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2014, 08:33 PM   #10
urbandefault
Captain
 
urbandefault's Avatar
 
Location: Chicken pot, chicken pot, chicken pot pie!
Re: Should they just have ditched uniforms and protocol?

Being separated that far from the Federation increases the need for uniforms and protocol, especially with a "mixed" crew of Starfleet and Maquis. There has to be a rock solid chain of command, with a (borrowing from the real world) Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Without it, the chances of making it back to the Alpha Quadrant are minimal at best.
__________________
"GARY BUSEY!" - Gary Busey
urbandefault is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2014, 09:22 PM   #11
Gaith
Rear Admiral
 
Gaith's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
Re: Should they just have ditched uniforms and protocol?

^ Aye; on-duty uniform wear is beneficial to good order and discipline. I too would've liked to see a lot more off-duty quirkiness, and maybe some of-duty folks walking around the corridors in civvies, but when you're on duty, you're on duty, man.
Gaith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2014, 11:20 PM   #12
teacake
Fleet Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Google's ass cave full of the lush, lush asses they have stolen.
Re: Should they just have ditched uniforms and protocol?

The next step from ditching uniforms is to start voting who is the captain. There cannot be democracy, this is the military.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2014, 11:26 PM   #13
urbandefault
Captain
 
urbandefault's Avatar
 
Location: Chicken pot, chicken pot, chicken pot pie!
Re: Should they just have ditched uniforms and protocol?

teacake wrote: View Post
The next step from ditching uniforms is to start voting who is the captain. There cannot be democracy, this is the military.
This.
__________________
"GARY BUSEY!" - Gary Busey
urbandefault is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14 2014, 12:47 AM   #14
Nebusj
Rear Admiral
 
Nebusj's Avatar
 
View Nebusj's Twitter Profile
Re: Should they just have ditched uniforms and protocol?

Orphalesion wrote: View Post
What do others think?
It seems to me that ritual and procedure and habits are quite valuable in keeping people from being overwhelmed by stressful situations. Doing so reduces the number and variety of decisions individuals have to make, for example, and provides the subtle reassurance that they are in a sensible structure; also, meeting clearly known objectives, even if they are objectively silly ones like ``uniforms cleaned and pressed'', is a reassurance that you are able to successfully do things even in circumstances where getting them done is extraordinarily hard.

Case in point: the evening of the attack Pearl Harbor, the US Navy went through the usual flag-lowering ceremonies at sunset, as if nothing were wrong, and multiple sailors reported that the fact they were carrying on as if nothing was out of the ordinary brought comfort in one of the worst days of their lives.

So while I would understand and sympathize with loosening up on protocols that are just fantastically irrelevant, I would be reluctant to remove too many (or too quickly), because while they may be irrelevant, the fact that they exist provides a positive benefit.
__________________
Math Blog: The Arthur Christmas Problem

Humor Blog: Is That Enough?
Nebusj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14 2014, 12:53 AM   #15
teacake
Fleet Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Google's ass cave full of the lush, lush asses they have stolen.
Re: Should they just have ditched uniforms and protocol?

Plus these people want to be in the military. They want uniforms to wear and ranks to define their relationship with others. They signed up for that bullshit, any of them could have been on a civilian research vessel if it was only about the science. Clearly for most of them that wasn't the case. Starfleet is a huge self sustaining propaganda machine that is these people's culture. You can't just pull that away, especially as being lost in space on a ship there is nothing to replace it with.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:50 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.