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Old March 18 2014, 12:42 AM   #61
david g
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Teacake, of course, I agree that the alien metaphor lends itself to allegory. I think it comes down to which works most affectingly explore certain themes, allegorically or otherwise. Christopher, I think that same-gender pairing of Tom and Harry in "Demon" does lend itself to the gender play I am discussing.
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Old March 18 2014, 01:23 AM   #62
Guy Gardener
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

That goo just latched onto the solid they found first, without even knowing what gender is.

Could Quicksilver Harry and Quicksilver Tom talk to the rest of the quicksilver on planet, because creating a massive shift in the existence of thousands of tons of quicksilver matter without permission from that quicksilver matter is like Colonel sterilizing the genetically damaged by the millions after World War III...

Not only did they take what they got and stuck to it but 1,000,000 percent more Quicksilver matter was tricked into being the ship when it equally could have wanted to be "people" if it had had been told how much better it was to be people than a hulk of metal hurling through space.

Is it more substantial to be a person or be the ship?

Why be less substantial?

It's been a very long time since I saw this last, but the Quicksilver was given a choice, despite having no method to make an informed choice, or even language, or it was all frogmarched into a change in existence so absolute that it's comparable to death.

And even then, they didn't chose gender, and we are not aware if the quicksilver played swapsies with their identities until everyone was happy... But if that was true, then you would expect that there would be duplicates of some of the crewmen.

Are the Delaney sisters flesh and blood or quicksilver?
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Old March 18 2014, 04:10 AM   #63
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

david g wrote: View Post
Christopher, I think that same-gender pairing of Tom and Harry in "Demon" does lend itself to the gender play I am discussing.
Just about anything can "lend itself" to any interpretation you want to impose on it, if you cherrypick and finesse it enough. That does not mean the creators intended that interpretation.
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Old March 18 2014, 06:51 AM   #64
david g
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Christopher, I have very little interest in whether or not "the creators intended that interpretation." Literary and film criticism interprets the work. D. H. Lawrence said it best, "Never trust the artist, trust the tale."
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Old March 18 2014, 07:12 AM   #65
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

In this case, you have so utterly inverted the the original product that you can be seen as the untrustworthy artist of a completely new tale others can equally tie in a bow.

Here's the story of some gay alien stalking Tuvok...

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Old March 18 2014, 09:28 AM   #66
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

I always knew those turbolifts were the public loos of the future.
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Old March 18 2014, 01:20 PM   #67
david g
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

The burden is on the critic to make a persuasive case. Trek as an industry is a lot like the Production Code of Classic Hollywood in terms of gay/queer issues--a culture of silence reigns, but then certain artists found ways to subvert the system. It's entirely possible that some Trek writers have consciously embedded non-explicit queer themes into Trek texts. At the same time, some of these texts are suggestive and resonant in ways that speak to queer experience. The whole point is to explore and think through these matters rather than simply accepting certain boilerplate readings of Trek.
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Old March 18 2014, 03:26 PM   #68
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Yes, that should be the truth, but can you give us some decent examples?
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Old March 18 2014, 04:26 PM   #69
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

There was no "lesbian kiss".

Kes was possessed by Tieran at that time and the situation was just Tieran trying to kiss Nori. However, Nori was reluctant to kiss Tieran when his mind was occupying a female body. She waited for Tieran to leave Kes's mind and body and instead take over some male's body.
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Old March 18 2014, 04:29 PM   #70
david g
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Guy, I have been trying to do just that. Okay--how about "The Gift"? It's an affecting coming out allegory. The scene between Kes and Janeway when Kes says that she is leaving the ship is exquisitely tender and also remarkably resonant as a coming out moment: "Look at me, Captain--I am the same Kes you've always known." As I said, I provide extended readings of Trek works in my book along these lines.
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Old March 18 2014, 09:46 PM   #71
teacake
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

But she wasn't the same Kes! She was a time bomb!

Well. She might have always been a time bomb but Janeway just didn't know it because she was sucked in by the sweetness.

"Don't worry mom and dad even though I am gay and tenderly telling you about it I am the same person you have always known."

One year later, returns and blows up the house.. nope doesn't really work.
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Old March 18 2014, 10:05 PM   #72
Guy Gardener
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Coming out is like Apotheosis, or coming out is like being kicked off the show?

Choosing when to tell people that you are gay is a delicate moment that is planned for, considering the possible blowback.

Kes was mutating into something toxic that was breaking down the molecules of Voyager, so she had to leave before all her friends (and Seven of Nine) died when the ship turned into Swiss cheese.

How toxic is it to announce your homosexuality to the public?

Melting molecular bonds isn't too far from the truth in some cases I guess?

However it turned out that once she turned into a cloud that Kes was better off and happier and beyond the mortal concerns of her former associates... Are you suggesting that homosexuals are the next step in human evolution and straight people need to be kept in cages once homosuperior have become the masters of the Earth?

(You are?)

Then you add Fury to the mix where Kes is raging against all her past decisions as the old sprite is claiming that Janeway tricked her into becoming a cloud and nothing worked out right and everyone is a villain trying to destroy her, and that even after she went home, all the other Ocampa hated and feared her because she was different and the only way to create her happily ever after was to hammer at the universe with time travel until she found people that liked her.

I thought Gay meant happy?

(Fury is the worst, but I'm pretty close too.)

...

Yes it is a story about transition and change, but you can claim that it is about butterflies as much as coming out, and although it may make people who are coming out (and butterflies) feel better about themselves as they are coming out (and/or breaking out of their chrysalises) it's unintentional, incidental and accidental.
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Old March 18 2014, 11:12 PM   #73
Guy Gardener
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Lynx wrote: View Post
There was no "lesbian kiss".

Kes was possessed by Tieran at that time and the situation was just Tieran trying to kiss Nori. However, Nori was reluctant to kiss Tieran when his mind was occupying a female body. She waited for Tieran to leave Kes's mind and body and instead take over some male's body.
"The lesbian kiss that wasn't there, but should have been there, and why the hell wasn't it there!?"

The ridiculous absence of the lesbian kiss in Warlord invented a substantial existence for that kiss.

It's a negative space thingy, y'know?

Oh.

I found a gay in Voyager!

Tagged the Bastard!

"Leonardo DaVinci".

From Yahoo Answers.

How do we know Leonardo was gay?
When he was twenty-four years old, Leonardo was arrested, along with several young companions, on the charge of sodomy.
Of course in TOS, Leo spent all his time trying to build a fembot to have sex with, so maybe he swings both ways, or he was just taking a break from cock for a bit?

And if DaVinci had been building a himbot to have sex with, would Kirk have still been "used" to activate the robots emotions?
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; March 19 2014 at 01:46 AM.
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Old March 19 2014, 01:38 AM   #74
teacake
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Yes because Kirk activates everyone's emotions. He's the universal activator.
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Old March 19 2014, 01:50 AM   #75
Guy Gardener
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

I remember Saviik being unimpressed, and Jadzia was more into Spock, and she had actually f####d McCoy.

He kissed "himself" in 5.

That didn't work out too well.
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