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Old March 17 2014, 08:32 AM   #46
Guy Gardener
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

The network was petrified of having gays on Buffy in season four.

(This is true)

The Network said: You can have some gays as long as 1, you don't use the word gay, 2, they don't even touch each other, and 3, they don't tell any one that they're in a relationship.

Because the sky didn't fall and the Christians didn't destroy the Warner's lot, Joss was given new less restrictive rules for season 5.
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Old March 17 2014, 08:42 AM   #47
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Indeed, Xena had more obvious subtext than Trek could dream of, and yet, they never really took that final step with her and Gabrielle. Heck, Will and Grace would hardly dare having two men kiss. For much of the show, the two supposedly straight characters, Grace and her kooky secretary had more kissing and embracing than Jack or Will were shown to have. Trek is a conventional product of a very typical American studio. They won't do anything truly bold till its been ten years past everyone else finds the topic old news.
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Old March 17 2014, 02:15 PM   #48
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

david g wrote: View Post
Christopher, you seemed to be saying that VOY's being "TNG-lite" and formulaic contributed to its lack of exploration of LGBTQI subtext, in comparison to DS9. Is that not what you were saying? If I misunderstood, my apologies.
Nothing so direct as that. I'm saying UPN was more timid about VGR in general, which had multiple consequences on its storytelling, and one aspect of that was that they were too timid to let Jennifer Lien kiss Galyn Gorg in "Warlord." Even if it's true that the producers managed to sneak some LGBT subtext in the show under the network's noses, that single aspect doesn't disprove the larger point, because UPN's policies were not exclusively about that single issue.
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Old March 17 2014, 02:32 PM   #49
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

If we are making the deliberate insertion of LGBTQI subtext into Trek films and series the standard, then all of them fail. I have no idea what the writers of VOY were trying to add or to keep from being added, although it does seem that Jeri Taylor was very conscious of this issue (she wrote gay characters into her VOY novel "Pathways"). The issue for me--and this goes back to TOS--is that Trek poignantly speaks to queer experience through its narratives of loneliness and estrangement as well as its exploration of same-gender relationships. Again, I am talking about allegory, not explicit representation.

I am also making a related, perhaps, but separate point that the excellence of the writing on VOY--at times--lent itself to the possibilities of queer allegory, not that it intentionally created or promulgated these allegories.

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Old March 17 2014, 08:29 PM   #50
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Teacake asked for examples.

Jeri Taylor had Janeway go to the beach with Mark's wife to sun bathe.

Clearly the woman, Taylor, is unhinged and not in touch with the reality of reality or the reality of Star Trek.

I won't be mean, just teach me what you believe are the most LBGT subtextuous episodes were?
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Old March 17 2014, 09:21 PM   #51
david g
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Well, I wrote an entire book on the subject, which I won't belabor here, and I also gave a sample list of episodes about queer subtext. But, for example, "Dark Frontier" seems to me a very queer episode in its exploration of different forms of female sexuality, fetishism, and styles of femininity. Of course, the queer elements of these dimensions of the episode are only some of the elements. But what about an episode like "Demon," in which copies of Tom and Harry can no longer survive in their "normal" environment and must form a new, separate reality/existence? Again, I am talking about allegory, not an explicit representation. I am also talking about, as in "Dark Frontier," forms of play with gendered identities.
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Old March 17 2014, 09:52 PM   #52
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

Dude if this is about allegory then of course VOY is, in the eyes of the viewer, potentially chock full of it is as is any story about aliens and alienation. Aliens and alienation grabbed all the proto-basement nerds by their little lonely hearts when TOS started, Spock was poster boy for a generation of introverts who didn't fit in. If you want to make that about sexuality issues, go for it. But it wasn't written that way deliberately other than some heavy handed half attempts such as the Riker ep and Fusion.
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Old March 17 2014, 10:08 PM   #53
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

david g wrote: View Post
But what about an episode like "Demon," in which copies of Tom and Harry can no longer survive in their "normal" environment and must form a new, separate reality/existence? Again, I am talking about allegory, not an explicit representation.
But that's not specifically about gender, it's about alienation in general, as Star Trek has always been to a large degree. It could just as easily be about being a racial or religious outsider. It just happens that LGBT people are the main group whose inclusion and rights are at the center of the cultural debate in the present day. But that doesn't mean a story about alienation would've been meant to be about them specifically at the time it was written. Look at X-Men. These days it's seen largely as a gay metaphor, particularly in the Bryan Singer movies. But considering that it was created in the 1960s by the sons of Jewish immigrants, it's pretty clear that its original intent was to be an allegory for ethnic, religious, and class discrimination.

Oh, and teacake, it was "Stigma," the followup to "Fusion," that was the AIDS/gay allegory. "Fusion" itself was more of a rape allegory.
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Old March 17 2014, 10:27 PM   #54
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

The obvious rape allegory seems to have missed the attention of the caption writer for the TrekBBS episode Guide.

"The Enterprise hosts a group of Vulcans who, unlike T'Pol and the other Vulcan High Command, are eager to embrace and experience their own emotions. When one of their rank tempts her to adapt their more free-spirited approach to life, T'Pol finds herself faced with a confusing and intriguing dilemma."
So in Fusion T'Pol gets meldraped by a thug who Archer knocks on his ass, and then half a season later in Stigma we find out that T'Pol got meldAIDS from the Thug, which was in reality a PSA for real AIDS with a phone number in the corner of the screen for any one who wants to donate towards AIDS research, and then 2 seasons later T'Pol is told that she was overacting and that what she thought was meldAIDS is really Meldsniffles, and she is cured in early season four.

(Facepalm.)

But what is really important is if Meld = Sex, then Spock had sex with a lot of dudes.
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Old March 17 2014, 10:44 PM   #55
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

And in "Mirror, Mirror" beard-o Spock forces a mind meld on McCoy.
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Old March 17 2014, 10:48 PM   #56
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

And Wrath of Khan/Search for Spock too.

Meld does not equal sex.

"These days sex doesn't even equal dinner and a movie."
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Old March 17 2014, 11:00 PM   #57
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

And Spock mind rapes Valeris, A PRISONER. Geez.

Wait. Maybe this was really about bondage?
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Old March 17 2014, 11:17 PM   #58
Guy Gardener
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

But did she want him to do that?

How desperate was Valeris to get caught so that she could to be with Spock in any way that she could?

Besides, capturing the woman, and outsmarting her "masters" plan was (filtered for alien effect) alarmingly arousing, since her interest in the most perfect suitor available would by stymied if he was some idiot she could dupe with a little common misdirection.

Remember in Red Sonja, she vowed that she could only ever sleep with a man that could beat her in combat?

She wanted it to be nonconsensual, which is a double negative which... Not rape.
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Old March 17 2014, 11:22 PM   #59
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

I think it's clear from all her baiting and banter that getting Spock in the head sack was her objective from the beginning. But does Spock realize this? Because if he does consensually engage in the dueling play that leads to the payoff that's cool but if he is oblivious to her agenda then it is Spock that has been mind raped.
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Old March 17 2014, 11:45 PM   #60
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Re: Warlord and the lesbian kiss

You ever wonder if Kim Katrall asked Shatner or Nimoy if they wanted a guest spot on Sex and the City?

Kirk asked the question, Valeris lied, Spock melded, Spock got Kirk the answer he wanted.

Kirk didn't order the meld, but Kirk didn't have to give the order, so Spock melded with the lieutenant because he knew that kirk needed him to do it, which is as good as an order.

Just following orders.

Although...

Rereading the transcript,

VALERIS: You knew? ...I tried to tell you but you would not listen.
Did Valeris almost recruit Spock (to Section 31)?
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