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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old March 11 2014, 06:22 PM   #31
Redfern
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Re: A Goof in the STAR TREK Franchise

Hmm, that's the second time within recent memory I tossed some oddball thought out there and you've stated your like. Uh, what was the first? I can't remember.

A bit more seriously, if I've thought of something, odds are someone else has already considered the concept and put a lot more reasoning behind it.

Sincerely,

Bill
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Old March 11 2014, 06:41 PM   #32
Warped9
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Re: A Goof in the STAR TREK Franchise

Redfern wrote: View Post
Hmm, that's the second time within recent memory I tossed some oddball thought out there and you've stated your like. Uh, what was the first? I can't remember.

A bit more seriously, if I've thought of something, odds are someone else has already considered the concept and put a lot more reasoning behind it.

Sincerely,

Bill
Well some years ago I did think the barrier could be some form of optical illusion that always seems to appear right in front of you. But I never considered that it could only be visible in warp flight. That's inspired and I really like it.
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Old March 11 2014, 07:46 PM   #33
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Re: A Goof in the STAR TREK Franchise

scotpens wrote: View Post
Not to mention that the idea of a definable "edge" to the galaxy is a load of rubbish in the first place. To quote David Gerrold, it's like trying to bisect a sneeze.
Which is good snark, but bad thinking. If there are some places which are unmistakably inside the galaxy, and some places which are unmistakably outside the galaxy, the implication is that there is some boundary.

There might be some phenomenon that makes for a compelling boundary, such as, say, a massive field of energy. There might just a point where some measurable quantity (e.g., the density of particles) grows too small to bother with or changes in character (e.g., the kinds of particles being distributed the way they are in indisputably intergalactic space). There might just be a practical point such as, say, the farthest extent that a starship could reach and still be tactically significant. But one could still define that edge.

No one seriously disputes that we can talk about the boundary of a planet's atmosphere, even though the atmosphere really just peters off and merges imperceptibly into interplanetary space.

And it's not as if gigantic structures at the limits of the galaxy, in whatever way you want to define the limits, are unknown or unthinkable.

Bisecting a sneeze is even easier, as there are so many ways to do it.
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Old March 12 2014, 04:42 AM   #34
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Re: A Goof in the STAR TREK Franchise

Maurice wrote: View Post
De Forest Research reviewed the scripts for all kind of issues, including science gaffes, and typically caught them, but the production didn't always heed their recommendations and sometimes script revisions didn't get sent to them.
And, for the two pilots and most of the first season, the production also received detailed notes from Harvey Lynn of the RAND Corporation.
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Old March 12 2014, 06:04 AM   #35
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Re: A Goof in the STAR TREK Franchise

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Redfern wrote: View Post
The "rationalization" that personally satisfies me is that the "barrier" is "something" that is only observable by ships and probes employing some sort of warp drive. In "normal" space, it's effectively not there and one can just cruise on by. But it would take hundreds or thousnads of years to traverse the same distance. Kick in that warp drive and it becomes very "real".

As to why it appears as a "band" instead of a "shell", maybe that's just one of those optic things. Likewly, it IS a "shell", but it simply appears to be a band from whatever angle it's approached. Warp "north" or "south" of the galactic plane, and it still looks like a bloody band.

Yeah, a "weak" explanation to be sure, but it suspends my disbelief well enough to enjoy the story.

Sincerely,

Bill
Actually that's a pretty damn good explanation. I like it.

Yeah, it's a great idea. It explains why the barrier is "not there" as far as we can see in real life. It exists only in subspace, but it's so big that you can't get there, let alone cross it, without warp drive. This basically vindicates the whole episode.
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Old March 12 2014, 06:17 AM   #36
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Re: A Goof in the STAR TREK Franchise

I like Redfern's idea too, to a degree. One major point it has going for it is that it allows the barrier to exist in Star Trek mythology without its absence conflicting with real world observation. In-universe, the explanation would be that we can't see it, because we aren't FTL capable.

The problem that it runs into is that the Valiant had impulse power only, and the barrier had a real effect on her. I'm not a subscriber to the fanwank that impulse is some form of FTL, crude or otherwise. I can (I suppose) tolerate a warp-capable ship using a warp field to reduce its inertial mass so that rockets can accelerate the ship faster than otherwise. Considering impulse itself to be FTL is a bridge too far for me, though.

In my personal continuity, the Valiant was swept to the edge of the galaxy by the "magnetic space storm", which is an FTL effect in the Star Trek universe, possibly related to the barrier itself, and she wouldn't have been able to get out that far ever, otherwise (with a live crew). In fact, that right there is another alternative: perhaps the barrier flares up in some sort of cyclic pattern related to the magnetic space storms, and that's why we "don't have any evidence of it" at the moment.
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Old March 12 2014, 06:40 AM   #37
ZapBrannigan
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Re: A Goof in the STAR TREK Franchise

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I like Redfern's idea too, to a degree. One major point it has going for it is that it allows the barrier to exist in Star Trek mythology without its absence conflicting with real world observation. In-universe, the explanation would be that we can't see it, because we aren't FTL capable.

The problem that it runs into is that the Valiant had impulse power only, and the barrier had a real effect on her. I'm not a subscriber to the fanwank that impulse is some form of FTL, crude or otherwise. I can (I suppose) tolerate a warp-capable ship using a warp field to reduce its inertial mass so that rockets can accelerate the ship faster than otherwise. Considering impulse itself to be FTL is a bridge too far for me, though.

In my personal continuity, the Valiant was swept to the edge of the galaxy by the "magnetic space storm", which is an FTL effect in the Star Trek universe, possibly related to the barrier itself, and she wouldn't have been able to get out that far ever, otherwise (with a live crew). In fact, that right there is another alternative: perhaps the barrier flares up in some sort of cyclic pattern related to the magnetic space storms, and that's why we "don't have any evidence of it" at the moment.

A cyclic pattern or periodicity to the Barrier is another good suggestion, but the Valiant simply had to have FTL. Storm or no storm, you don't get out there, past other stars, without exceeding the speed of light.

Granted, the timeline barely works. The Valiant took off 200 years prior to WNM, which can't be more than a few years after Cochrane discovered the space warp.
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Old March 12 2014, 06:47 AM   #38
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Re: A Goof in the STAR TREK Franchise

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
A cyclic pattern or periodicity to the Barrier is another good suggestion, but the Valiant simply had to have FTL. Storm or no storm, you don't get out there, past other stars, without exceeding the speed of light.
Like I said, I'm going with the idea that the storm was an FTL effect, that itself swept the Valiant to faster-than-light speed. Something's gotta give in the dialog: either one is loose with what is meant by "magnetic" or one is loose with what is meant by "impulse". I'm going with the former.

I'm not sure why you say "past other stars", though. If it's a question of collision, stars themselves occupy only a tiny fraction of the volume of the galaxy. They wouldn't be in the way. When two galaxies collide, stellar contact is rare to non-existent. If it's a question of the distance involved, I'm assuming that the storm provides all the FTL effect needed to get out that far.

I know that not all fans agree with this notion here, because we've discussed the subject before. I'm just trying to clarify what I mean, because I sense that it might not have been fully clear what I'm suggesting.
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Old March 12 2014, 07:26 AM   #39
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Re: A Goof in the STAR TREK Franchise

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Gary Mitchell wrote: View Post
Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
I thought this thread would be about James R. Kirk.
No one's ever going to let me forget that are they?
I do not remember that....but did wonder why Kirk left Elizabeth's stinking corpse on my planet. Imagine climbing out of that hole, only to discover...that...
Yeah, so? Bring her back to life. You're a god.

(One of you is, anyway.)
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Old March 12 2014, 07:29 AM   #40
Warped9
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Re: A Goof in the STAR TREK Franchise

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Gary Mitchell wrote: View Post

No one's ever going to let me forget that are they?
I do not remember that....but did wonder why Kirk left Elizabeth's stinking corpse on my planet. Imagine climbing out of that hole, only to discover...that...
Yeah, so? Bring her back to life. You're a god.

(One of you is, anyway.)
Where does it say Dehner's body was left behind? For that matter who is to say they left Mitchell's body under the slab?
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Old March 12 2014, 09:27 AM   #41
ZapBrannigan
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Re: A Goof in the STAR TREK Franchise

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Like I said, I'm going with the idea that the storm was an FTL effect, that itself swept the Valiant to faster-than-light speed. Something's gotta give in the dialog: either one is loose with what is meant by "magnetic" or one is loose with what is meant by "impulse". I'm going with the former.

I'm not sure why you say "past other stars", though. If it's a question of collision, stars themselves occupy only a tiny fraction of the volume of the galaxy. They wouldn't be in the way. When two galaxies collide, stellar contact is rare to non-existent. If it's a question of the distance involved, I'm assuming that the storm provides all the FTL effect needed to get out that far.

I know that not all fans agree with this notion here, because we've discussed the subject before. I'm just trying to clarify what I mean, because I sense that it might not have been fully clear what I'm suggesting.

I share your understanding of the stars being so far apart that you won't hit one by accident. By "past other stars" I was trying to draw a distinction. I meant going out to interstellar distances, not merely outside our solar system, which can be done (it took real-life Voyager 1 thirty-six years at 17 kilometers per second). To get to a galactic boundary area, at least 500 light years from Earth, you have to go FTL somehow-- which we also agree on.

We just disagree on what to massage in the WNM dialog. I take Kirk's "impulse" reference not to mean that the Valiant had impulse only. He was somehow speaking in shorthand and left a misleading impression to us laymen.
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Old March 12 2014, 10:14 AM   #42
CorporalCaptain
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Re: A Goof in the STAR TREK Franchise

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
We just disagree on what to massage in the WNM dialog. I take Kirk's "impulse" reference not to mean that the Valiant had impulse only. He was somehow speaking in shorthand and left a misleading impression to us laymen.
I think it actually works better to just plug our ears and go la-la-la when he says the word impulse there. If we strike that word from the dialog in connection to the Valiant, then everything works much better.

At this point, now that Star Trek: First Contact is in the can, that's what I'd prefer to do. Impulse really should mean sublight. If ST:FC in the 21st century was set just a decade or two later, we could reasonably assume that the Valiant got a few light-years out at sublight and then got swept away.

Another alternative is to assume that the magnetic space storm nullifies/shorts out either more primitive warp drives or any warp drive whatsoever, so that they had to go on impulse only. You still have to tweak the dialog probably (you'd expect them to mention this fact in the course of natural conversation, which already represents a somewhat extensive exposition as it is), but I don't think it's as contradictory in that case.
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Old March 12 2014, 11:03 AM   #43
Robert Comsol
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Re: A Goof in the STAR TREK Franchise

Great points everyone.

I especially like the idea that the barrier manifests itself, whenever warp drive comes into play (and didn't we see something like that happening in "Is There In Truth No Beauty?" I never quite understood where they ended up exactly, but IIRC the VFX footage was the one from the barrier of WNM).

I'm not sure if Kirk mentioning explicitly the weakness of the impulse engines can be taken as evidence that the Valiant only had impulse drive.

According to "The Immunity Syndrome" Scotty combined warp and impulse engines (!) to create a greater thrust. For a vessel like the Valiant, impulse engines may have played a bigger role in that era than in TOS, so a lot of breakaway power did rely on those.

Bob
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Old March 14 2014, 11:01 PM   #44
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Re: A Goof in the STAR TREK Franchise

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Silvercrest wrote: View Post
TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post

I do not remember that....but did wonder why Kirk left Elizabeth's stinking corpse on my planet. Imagine climbing out of that hole, only to discover...that...
Yeah, so? Bring her back to life. You're a god.

(One of you is, anyway.)
Where does it say Dehner's body was left behind? For that matter who is to say they left Mitchell's body under the slab?
It's in my assumptions.
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Old March 16 2014, 10:34 PM   #45
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Re: A Goof in the STAR TREK Franchise

I don't have a problem with some warp travel destinations having shorter transit times.

I just assume that certain space lanes were rather like SW hyperspace lanes, something laid down by other entities long ago, near cosmic strings allowing variable speed of light. Warp factors are similarly amplified.

Once away from the string, warp is rather more normal.
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