RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,112
Posts: 5,432,900
Members: 24,932
Currently online: 646
Newest member: Cani

TrekToday headlines

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Yelchin In New Indie Thriller
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Saldana In The Book of Life
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Cracked’s New Sci-Fi Satire
By: T'Bonz on Oct 16


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 3 2014, 12:59 AM   #76
Creepy Critter
Admiral
 
Creepy Critter's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: ST-TMP: your first time...

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Structurally, there's a problem in that, once the setup is accomplished, the vast majority of TMP takes place aboard the ship,without them beaming down to any interesting locations or settings. Which can make all those bridge scenes seem a bit visually monotonous and claustrophobic. You need more variety and, yes, color and excitement.

By contrast, in WoK, you also have the desert wastes of Ceti Alpha V, the spooky confines of the Regula space station, the lush natural beauty of the Genesis cavern, etc.

Speaking from experience, I often try to get the captain and crew off the bridge as fast as humanly possible, so I'm not stuck with talking heads staring at a screen.
I don't think this is a problem with the film. I point to 12 Angry Men as an example. 8 minutes of the movie wasn't around a black-and-white table. It is nothing but dialogue describing a crime and good acting. I think Star Trek could've done the same thing. I've always been drawn to stories like telling one across a campfire.
12 Angry Men did not consist of the characters simply staring out the window and saying things like, "I wonder how many people fit into that skyscraper over there...."

There were a lot of good bottle episodes, but stuff actually happened in them. Plus, an actual analog in Star Trek of 12 Angry Men would be an episode that took place almost entirely in the briefing room. That's contrary to the format, by any stretch of the imagination. Not even courtroom episodes such as "Court Martial" and "The Measure Of A Man" went that far, and nor did any of the others that I can recall.
__________________
CorporalCaptain
Creepy Critter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3 2014, 01:02 AM   #77
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: ST-TMP: your first time...

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Structurally, there's a problem in that, once the setup is accomplished, the vast majority of TMP takes place aboard the ship,without them beaming down to any interesting locations or settings. Which can make all those bridge scenes seem a bit visually monotonous and claustrophobic. You need more variety and, yes, color and excitement.

By contrast, in WoK, you also have the desert wastes of Ceti Alpha V, the spooky confines of the Regula space station, the lush natural beauty of the Genesis cavern, etc.

Speaking from experience, I often try to get the captain and crew off the bridge as fast as humanly possible, so I'm not stuck with talking heads staring at a screen.
I don't think this is a problem with the film. I point to 12 Angry Men as an example. 8 minutes of the movie wasn't around a black-and-white table. It is nothing but dialogue describing a crime and good acting. I think Star Trek could've done the same thing. I've always been drawn to stories like telling one across a campfire.
Oh, certainly you can make it work. My Dinner with Andre is a great movie, too, and that's just two guys talking in a restaurant for two hours.

But I'm not sure that's what people expect from a Star Trek movie, especially one based on TOS, which was a lot more colorful and exciting than that. "My Dinner with Sarek" is probably not going to fly.

A lot depends on the genre and expectations. There are no shoot-outs in "Smiles of a Summer Night," and no one expects there to be, but if you go to see a western, you don't expect them to gaze at the scenery for hours . . . and spend the entire movie in the saloon!
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3 2014, 01:14 AM   #78
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: ST-TMP: your first time...

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
"Balance of Terror" seldom leaves the bridge.
Balance of Terror isn't two hours long . . .

Seriously, history is full of tense movies set in confined settings. Just look at pretty much every submarine thriller ever made. But when you have a movie that already has pacing issues, and is not exactly a white-knuckle thriller, an occasional change of setting would have perked things up a bit.

By itself, staying on the ship isn't a fatal flaw or anything. But I think I think it contributes to the sense that TMP drags a bit.

If you look at the later movies, you can see that they're better at getting the crew off the ship on the regular basis and feature a healthy variety of settings: The Genesis planet, modern-day San Francisco, Rura Penthe, etc.

One can argue that the Trek movies learned their lesson from TMP and never confined the story to just the ship again.

[EDIT: Oops! Sorry for the double post. Got caught up in the discussion.]
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3 2014, 01:18 AM   #79
gottacook
Commander
 
Location: Maryland
Re: ST-TMP: your first time...

I saw TMP (twice) in the Fox theater in center-city Philadelphia, across the street from City Hall. Many years earlier, my only previous visit to the Fox, I had seen 2001 in Cinerama. (Within a few months of TMP's run, the Fox was torn down for an office tower.)

One of the early newspaper reviews complained that there was a TV-style rhythm to the picture, crisis points at intervals similar to commercial breaks. There's something to that, I think. But in addition so much of the dialogue just lies there…

Someone above noted the exploratory nature of the mission, the focus on learning about V'ger rather than defeating it per se. But these moments are the source of some of the worst dialog among the bridge crew. Kirk's "Radio?!" for example, as though the term had never passed his lips before.

At the premiere some of these problems were overlooked because the goodness of the effects shots, in combination with the Goldsmith music, had its desired effect on Trek fans who had endured a 10-year drought (the cartoons excepted). Desmond Ryan of the Inquirer gave a glowing review at first, headlined "The Film's Just Heavenly," but then mentioned reservations in a later column. I suspect he wasn't alone.

My attitude toward TMP (ever since TWoK came out) has been that TMP's failures are mostly the result of its G rating and its attempt to appeal to everyone, whereas ultimately TWoK succeeded in finding a wide audience by taking the opposite tack - that is, by catering directly to Trek fans with a sequel to a specific episode of the series.
gottacook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3 2014, 01:30 AM   #80
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: ST-TMP: your first time...

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

There were a lot of good bottle episodes, but stuff actually happened in them. Plus, an actual analog in Star Trek of 12 Angry Men would be an episode that took place almost entirely in the briefing room. That's contrary to the format, by any stretch of the imagination. Not even courtroom episodes such as "Court Martial" and "The Measure Of A Man" went that far, and nor did any of the others that I can recall.
It's funny. The Trek book I'm working on now has a lot of briefing room scenes, but I'm breaking them up by cutting to the landing party every third chapter or so . . . .
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3 2014, 01:40 AM   #81
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: ST-TMP: your first time...

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
"Balance of Terror" seldom leaves the bridge.
Same with "The Corbomite Maneuver," "The Immunity Syndrome" and "The Tholian Web."

But in fairness those are fifty minute episodes where time is effectively compressed to create a heightened sense of tension. If any of those were stretched to two hours you might start running into problems. What do you add into that extra hour?

This is where the comparison to "The Changeling" is apt. "The Changeling" is also all aboard ship (indeed more so than TMP), but the story is tightly told within fifty minutes. There's no extra screen time to fill.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3 2014, 01:45 AM   #82
RyanKCR
Vice Admiral
 
RyanKCR's Avatar
 
Location: RyanKCR is living here in Allentown
Re: ST-TMP: your first time...

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Structurally, there's a problem in that, once the setup is accomplished, the vast majority of TMP takes place aboard the ship,without them beaming down to any interesting locations or settings. Which can make all those bridge scenes seem a bit visually monotonous and claustrophobic. You need more variety and, yes, color and excitement.
By contrast, in WoK, you also have the desert wastes of Ceti Alpha V, the spooky confines of the Regula space station, the lush natural beauty of the Genesis cavern, etc.
Speaking from experience, I often try to get the captain and crew off the bridge as fast as humanly possible, so I'm not stuck with talking heads staring at a screen.
That was one of the things I love about TMP. Once we get into space we stay in space. I never liked going down to a planet. It always looks like Earth faking another planet. If, however, this planet location has some highly advanced technology that is essential to the story then it works for me. I want to see Sci-Fi not something I can see on another other show or movie.
__________________
"I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to.....I guess."
"If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy."
"Not all treasure is sliver and gold, mate."
RyanKCR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3 2014, 01:49 AM   #83
HaventGotALife
Fleet Captain
 
HaventGotALife's Avatar
 
Re: ST-TMP: your first time...

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Structurally, there's a problem in that, once the setup is accomplished, the vast majority of TMP takes place aboard the ship,without them beaming down to any interesting locations or settings. Which can make all those bridge scenes seem a bit visually monotonous and claustrophobic. You need more variety and, yes, color and excitement.

By contrast, in WoK, you also have the desert wastes of Ceti Alpha V, the spooky confines of the Regula space station, the lush natural beauty of the Genesis cavern, etc.

Speaking from experience, I often try to get the captain and crew off the bridge as fast as humanly possible, so I'm not stuck with talking heads staring at a screen.
I don't think this is a problem with the film. I point to 12 Angry Men as an example. 8 minutes of the movie wasn't around a black-and-white table. It is nothing but dialogue describing a crime and good acting. I think Star Trek could've done the same thing. I've always been drawn to stories like telling one across a campfire.
12 Angry Men did not consist of the characters simply staring out the window and saying things like, "I wonder how many people fit into that skyscraper over there...."
No, but it does talk about the weather and baseball an awful lot. It shows guys opening windows and complaining that it's raining and/or hot. It's a big triumph when they finally get the fan to work. Star Trek: The Motion Picture has more than just staring out a window and talking about how big V'Ger is. And even that fits within the Star Trek framework. They are explorers seeing this for the first time and marveling at how big it is. That's part of being on the bridge. There's the tension with Kirk and Decker that culminates with Decker saying "This is how I define unwarranted!" V'Ger is a mystery. I think with some editing, the story is fine.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
There were a lot of good bottle episodes, but stuff actually happened in them. Plus, an actual analog in Star Trek of 12 Angry Men would be an episode that took place almost entirely in the briefing room. That's contrary to the format, by any stretch of the imagination. Not even courtroom episodes such as "Court Martial" and "The Measure Of A Man" went that far, and nor did any of the others that I can recall.
That's very literal. I like storytelling that is simple. Who would've thought episodes like The Inner Light or Family would've been popular? That works. It just depends on the story.

RyanKCR wrote: View Post
That was one of the things I love about TMP. Once we get into space we stay in space. I never liked going down to a planet. It always looks like Earth faking another planet. If, however, this planet location has some highly advanced technology that is essential to the story then it works for me. I want to see Sci-Fi not something I can see on another other show or movie.
Exactly, I couldn't agree more. I want stories that are unique to Star Trek. TMP is definitely one of those stories.
__________________
"Cogley was old-fashioned, preferring paper books to computers. He had an extensive collection of books, he claimed never to use the computer in his office."

Last edited by HaventGotALife; March 3 2014 at 02:00 AM.
HaventGotALife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3 2014, 02:16 AM   #84
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: ST-TMP: your first time...

Well, if nothing us this thread has fostered discussion.

Oops! Sorry for the interruption...
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3 2014, 02:18 AM   #85
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: ST-TMP: your first time...

On the other hand, the opening spiel did say something about exploring "strange new worlds," not "gazing in awe from the ship."

Beam me down, Scotty!
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3 2014, 02:26 AM   #86
Creepy Critter
Admiral
 
Creepy Critter's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: ST-TMP: your first time...

Part of the drama in 12 Angry Men is that all twelve are in conflict with each other. By comparison, there is practically no conflict among the main characters in TMP; the conflicts among the characters are much more straightforward and easily resolved. 12 Angry Men is simply a bad example of drama to compare Star Trek to. You'd have to bring the Starfleet characters to the point of mutiny to have that sort of drama. It's absurd.
__________________
CorporalCaptain
Creepy Critter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3 2014, 02:37 AM   #87
HaventGotALife
Fleet Captain
 
HaventGotALife's Avatar
 
Re: ST-TMP: your first time...

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
On the other hand, the opening spiel did say something about exploring "strange new worlds," not "gazing in awe from the ship."

Beam me down, Scotty!
Despite V'Ger being nothing but a cloud in space, Kirk and Spock do get into space suits and Spock enters V'Ger. Spock mind-melds with it. They do explore V'Ger. We didn't see them on the bridge as they wiped away V'Ger to reveal "Voyager 6." The probe threatens them on the bridge of the ship, killing an officer. They have a probe, in the form of Ilia, to talk to, to learn about V'Ger. It's a small portion of the movie they are staring out in awe, probably 15 minutes at the most of a 120-minute movie.

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Well, if nothing us this thread has fostered discussion.

Oops! Sorry for the interruption...
Sorry, we are a bit off-topic. We're still talking about the movie, but we want to know if this is good, cerebral, boring, or subtle Star Trek. Everyone has an opinion

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Part of the drama in 12 Angry Men is that all twelve are in conflict with each other. By comparison, there is practically no conflict among the main characters in TMP; the conflicts among the characters are much more straightforward and easily resolved. 12 Angry Men is simply a bad example of drama to compare Star Trek to. You'd have to bring the Starfleet characters to the point of mutiny to have that sort of drama. It's absurd.
There is conflict. Decker and Jim are vying for control of the ship. Each suggestion from Decker breaks down into a fight. It isn't until Bones threatens Jim that he stops it. Spock is not present for part of this movie. They argue over what to do next "Jim, what the hell kind of plan is this?!?" "This is how I define unwarranted!" "Belay that Phaser Order!" It's pretty straight-forward in 12 Angry Men, too.
__________________
"Cogley was old-fashioned, preferring paper books to computers. He had an extensive collection of books, he claimed never to use the computer in his office."
HaventGotALife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3 2014, 02:45 AM   #88
trevanian
Rear Admiral
 
Re: ST-TMP: your first time...

Harvey wrote: View Post
David Lynch's Dune. Some people like it, I guess. I haven't seen the longer version, but I've seen the theatrical cut, which Lynch saw fit to leave his name on, and it's a terrible mess.
I think it is a lovely mess myself, but then again, I like ACTION JACKSON.

I always liken the movie to a black hole, with Kyle sucking the life out of all the talented actors around him (he's great in TWIN PEAKS, but here he is just utterly uncharismatic.) Add to that the exposition issues and the all-over-the-place effects and the inconsistent score, and you still have something with really nice art direction.

I watch the long version about half the time. It is a scream, since you have blueonblue eyes switching back to brown from cut to cut, plus there is concept art over the ENDLESS prologue that looks like something out of a Saturday morning catechism class (catholic sunday school for those fortunate enough to not be in the know.)
trevanian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3 2014, 02:51 AM   #89
Creepy Critter
Admiral
 
Creepy Critter's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: ST-TMP: your first time...

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
There is conflict. Decker and Jim are vying for control of the ship. Each suggestion from Decker breaks down into a fight. It isn't until Bones threatens Jim that he stops it. Spock is not present for part of this movie. They argue over what to do next "Jim, what the hell kind of plan is this?!?" "This is how I define unwarranted!" "Belay that Phaser Order!" It's pretty straight-forward in 12 Angry Men, too.
Yeah, I saw TMP. I don't recall much yelling and screaming between the crew members. I never said there wasn't conflict. What I said was that there "practically" isn't any by comparison, and I even emphasized those words so that their effect wouldn't be lost. In other words, the interpersonal conflict in TMP pales by comparison with that in 12AM (hey, I'd never noticed that before; 12AM, how apropos!)
__________________
CorporalCaptain
Creepy Critter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 3 2014, 02:54 AM   #90
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: ST-TMP: your first time...

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Part of the drama in 12 Angry Men is that all twelve are in conflict with each other. By comparison, there is practically no conflict among the main characters in TMP; the conflicts among the characters are much more straightforward and easily resolved. 12 Angry Men is simply a bad example of drama to compare Star Trek to. You'd have to bring the Starfleet characters to the point of mutiny to have that sort of drama. It's absurd.
This isn't a bad point. And it's something I tried to address in my citing another Robert Wise film, Run Silent, Run Deep. In that film the conflict isn't restricted to just the young Commander and the seasoned Captain. The conflict extends to the crew as people are taking sides. No one flat out mutinies, but the tension is there. There's a touch of that again in the feature film Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea which is also something of a rough parallel with TMP.

In TOS we saw tempers could flare, particularly in "The Galileo Seven," and throughout the series it isn't a Utopian one big happy family as it's painted in TNG. So the groundwork and precedent is there for internal shipboard conflict.

TMP's misstep is they only scratched the surface of that possibility.


One of the amazing things about TMP is that so much of it came together as it did considering all the bullshit that went into getting it made. By all rights it should have been a distaster...kinda like TFF.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:16 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.