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Old February 24 2014, 03:47 AM   #1
JJohnson
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Mutara Nebula Battle

I'm wondering if anyone has taken the time to 'remaster' the Mutara Nebula fight between Reliant and Enterprise using CG (preferably as video, over image). What we saw on-screen is good for 1982, but you don't see the nebula's gases parting in the wake of the ships, the phasers and torpedoes leaving gaseous wakes as they pass. It feels on-screen like the nebula is background while the ships fight above it, not in it. Has anyone else thought this too?
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Old February 24 2014, 04:56 AM   #2
sojourner
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Re: Mutara Nebula Battle

There's a guy on SFM that was slowly recreating all of the SFX from the Star Trek movies. He was going for authenticity to what was onscreen though, not changes.
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Old February 24 2014, 06:56 AM   #3
Psion
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Re: Mutara Nebula Battle

JJohnson wrote: View Post
I'm wondering if anyone has taken the time to 'remaster' the Mutara Nebula fight between Reliant and Enterprise using CG (preferably as video, over image). What we saw on-screen is good for 1982, but you don't see the nebula's gases parting in the wake of the ships, the phasers and torpedoes leaving gaseous wakes as they pass. It feels on-screen like the nebula is background while the ships fight above it, not in it. Has anyone else thought this too?
There are a few scenes where it feels like they're *in* the clouds, but you're right that there's no real interaction with the gases.

On the other hand, I find it much more distracting that the Mutara Nebula is so dense. Real nebulas are sparse ... gas and dense isn't much more dense than the surrounding vacuum and ships wouldn't be able to hide in them very well. Maybe if they were a few hundred AUs apart, but not at the distances shown.
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Old February 24 2014, 07:35 AM   #4
sojourner
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Re: Mutara Nebula Battle

Yeah. real nebula would be pretty invisible close up. Even the densest part of a nebula would be considered a pure vacuum. You wouldn't have material close enough to get wakes and eddies.
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Old February 24 2014, 08:26 AM   #5
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Re: Mutara Nebula Battle

Psion wrote: View Post
JJohnson wrote: View Post
I'm wondering if anyone has taken the time to 'remaster' the Mutara Nebula fight between Reliant and Enterprise using CG (preferably as video, over image). What we saw on-screen is good for 1982, but you don't see the nebula's gases parting in the wake of the ships, the phasers and torpedoes leaving gaseous wakes as they pass. It feels on-screen like the nebula is background while the ships fight above it, not in it. Has anyone else thought this too?
There are a few scenes where it feels like they're *in* the clouds, but you're right that there's no real interaction with the gases.

On the other hand, I find it much more distracting that the Mutara Nebula is so dense. Real nebulas are sparse ... gas and dense isn't much more dense than the surrounding vacuum and ships wouldn't be able to hide in them very well. Maybe if they were a few hundred AUs apart, but not at the distances shown.
Are you certain that there is not a single region of space with a dense nebula?
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Old February 24 2014, 04:23 PM   #6
SchwEnt
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Re: Mutara Nebula Battle

Not too long ago, I saw TWOK on the big screen at a local cinema. After decades of home viewing, perhaps the most impressive difference was the nebula battle.

On the big screen I could see layers and motion in the nebula, depth and movement, much more than I can ever recall seeing on disc at home.

I suppose the nebula isn't a static effect as we might see.
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Old February 24 2014, 04:47 PM   #7
Albertese
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Re: Mutara Nebula Battle

JarodRussell wrote: View Post

Are you certain that there is not a single region of space with a dense nebula?
Yes.

When nebulae get denser, the dust collects into rocks and asteroids, which further collapse into planetesimals and your star system formation is in full swing. That would look very different than the Mutara Nebula that we see. There is no possible scenario where dust clouds dense enough to create swirling eddies could exist.

Though it would look cool if there was.

But there isn't.

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Old February 24 2014, 06:05 PM   #8
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Re: Mutara Nebula Battle

^^

What he said.
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Old February 24 2014, 06:16 PM   #9
JarodRussell
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Re: Mutara Nebula Battle

Albertese wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

Are you certain that there is not a single region of space with a dense nebula?
Yes.

When nebulae get denser, the dust collects into rocks and asteroids, which further collapse into planetesimals and your star system formation is in full swing. That would look very different than the Mutara Nebula that we see. There is no possible scenario where dust clouds dense enough to create swirling eddies could exist.

Though it would look cool if there was.

But there isn't.

--Alex
How much time does it take before a low density cloud turns into a collection of rocks and asteroids, and until a star system forms? Is there no such thing as a transitional phase where there are somewhat denser clouds? Is it just an either or thing and the change between "sparse, close to vacuum nebula" and "extremely dense solar system formation" happens in the blink of an eye?
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Old February 24 2014, 06:42 PM   #10
sojourner
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Re: Mutara Nebula Battle

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
How much time does it take before a low density cloud turns into a collection of rocks and asteroids, and until a star system forms? Is there no such thing as a transitional phase where there are somewhat denser clouds? Is it just an either or thing and the change between "sparse, close to vacuum nebula" and "extremely dense solar system formation" happens in the blink of an eye?
No, it takes thousands/millions of years. But then again, in the grand scheme of things, nebula are rare. What are the chances of being near one at that time in it's development?
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Old February 24 2014, 10:03 PM   #11
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Re: Mutara Nebula Battle

sojourner wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
How much time does it take before a low density cloud turns into a collection of rocks and asteroids, and until a star system forms? Is there no such thing as a transitional phase where there are somewhat denser clouds? Is it just an either or thing and the change between "sparse, close to vacuum nebula" and "extremely dense solar system formation" happens in the blink of an eye?
No, it takes thousands/millions of years. But then again, in the grand scheme of things, nebula are rare. What are the chances of being near one at that time in it's development?
About as rare as having another starship available in the area other than the Enterprise!
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Old February 25 2014, 07:49 AM   #12
Albertese
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Re: Mutara Nebula Battle

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
How much time does it take before a low density cloud turns into a collection of rocks and asteroids, and until a star system forms? Is there no such thing as a transitional phase where there are somewhat denser clouds? Is it just an either or thing and the change between "sparse, close to vacuum nebula" and "extremely dense solar system formation" happens in the blink of an eye?
Well, that's just it; it is a transitional stage that last for millions of years, it just doesn't happen so.... evenly... I guess. Parts are dust while others are basically sand and elsewhere its sorta lumpy gravel, and on and on... All of which are still spread out quite a respectable distance from each other. As rocky masses acrete more dust and, therefore, mass they exert greater gravitation and draw in more and more dust. This sweeps away free dust as the free-floating rocks begin lumping together.

So, in reality, no area of space in a nebula would ever have a dense volume of dust, but, rather, patches of dust clouds, fields of small stones, and random aggregates. A dense volume of gas would never happen without there being a whole lot of solid obstacles for your unshielded ship to bump into.

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Old February 26 2014, 10:18 PM   #13
Mytran
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Re: Mutara Nebula Battle

Should I bring up the additional unusual aspect that the "nebula" was within spitting distance of the Regula sun?
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Old February 27 2014, 01:02 AM   #14
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Re: Mutara Nebula Battle

Binary system! Happens all the time.

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Old February 27 2014, 02:48 AM   #15
JJohnson
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Re: Mutara Nebula Battle

I can get the technical arguments, but artistically speaking, with the Enterprise and Reliant fighting in the nebula, it would look really amazing to see the dust and gas being pushed away by the ship flying through it, like Voyager did every episode in the credits, the gas parting for the ship. It would look better than having it look and feel like they were fighting over a background, rather than being in a nebula, which a remastering would resolve.
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