RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,670
Posts: 5,429,445
Members: 24,822
Currently online: 445
Newest member: The Great Duck


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 8 2014, 11:15 PM   #151
BigJake
Rear Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

Ovation wrote: View Post
In the end, I do not see Khan as a representative example because I do not share your view that his ethnicity was as widely known as you think. Among Trek fans, sure . . . Among the general viewing audience, not so.






So, to sum up... I disagree with you. Although we do agree about this:

I'm also sympathetic to the desire to see greater ethnic and gender/sex diversity in roles where it is easily done (as referenced by my earlier examples--you may not see a parallel between Perry White and Khan on the basis of backstory, but we can at least agree that casting a black man in the role of Perry White represents a step forward overall, non?).
Yes. The picture isn't all bleak, good things are happening too.

At any rate I'm sorry about my earlier impatience. It was a useful exercise spelling this out after all, and though I think you're quite wrong, you've been quite reasonable about the whole business and I do appreciate that.
__________________
It's got electrolytes!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig

Last edited by M'Sharak; March 10 2014 at 10:41 PM. Reason: EDITED so as not to snipping practically Ovation's whole post yet again
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 9 2014, 09:56 PM   #152
Ovation
Vice Admiral
 
Location: La Belle Province or The Green Mountain State (depends on the day of the week)
Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

BigJake wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
In the end, I do not see Khan as a representative example because I do not share your view that his ethnicity was as widely known as you think. Among Trek fans, sure . . . Among the general viewing audience, not so.






So, to sum up... I disagree with you. Although we do agree about this:

I'm also sympathetic to the desire to see greater ethnic and gender/sex diversity in roles where it is easily done (as referenced by my earlier examples--you may not see a parallel between Perry White and Khan on the basis of backstory, but we can at least agree that casting a black man in the role of Perry White represents a step forward overall, non?).
Yes. The picture isn't all bleak, good things are happening too.

At any rate I'm sorry about my earlier impatience. It was a useful exercise spelling this out after all, and though I think you're quite wrong, you've been quite reasonable about the whole business and I do appreciate that.
I have neither the time nor the inclination to scour the web for information on this, but I can state unequivocally that no one I know who did not watch Space Seed but did see TWOK ever mentioned ethnicity to me except for a few who asked if he was supposed to be Latin American (owing to his accent) and one person who asked if he was Jewish like Madeline Kahn. And I disagree about the supposed influence of the TOS episode itself--Khan became famous in TWOK, he wasn't put in TWOK because he was already famous (outside Trek fandom--even then, several other Trek "villains" were more famous than Khan before TWOK among my fellow Trek fans, Kor being chief among them. And I was around in the "before time" ). However, I'm not going to keep going in circles on this point. You think his ethnicity was well known among general viewers--I don't. Not much more to be done here.

I looked up Avatar: The Last Airbender (only knew it was among the latest in a string of flops by M. Night Shamalayan(sp?)--didn't know anything else about it before today). I agree that that was, to be charitable in the extreme, a poor artistic choice in terms of casting (after perusing the web, nothing I could say in less polite terms would add to the discussion). I can see why people would be upset (it upsets me on a conceptual level, but not having seen any iteration of it, that's as far as it goes for me). I still defend the filmmakers' right to choose the path they did. I do not in any way endorse the outcome of their choices. Still don't think Khan is a problematic case because I still don't think his ethnicity, owing to, in-universe, deliberately constructed nature of his character, is anywhere nearly as important as ethnicity is to The Last Airbender story and characters. What bugs me more (though, admittedly I didn't pay much attention in 1982 when I saw it at the cinema) is the transformation of Khan's crew--far less diversity in 1982 than in 1967, and owing to the uniformity of the 1982 crew's appearance, far more difficult to find a compelling reason for it in-universe (the "disguise" rationale that can easily be applied to Harrison/Khan is not applicable to the crew in 1982). However, 1982 was a different time than today, so in context, the "whitewashing" was relatively less objectionable than it would be today (emphasis on relatively). If there was a similar lack of diversity among 2013's Khan's crew (had they been all shown awakened), then I would have found it a lot more objectionable.

Anyway, I should get back to the pile of marking that does not seem to want to disappear all by itself. Au revoir.

Last edited by M'Sharak; March 10 2014 at 10:42 PM. Reason: edited spoiler tag content to alleviate horizontal stretching
Ovation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10 2014, 01:19 AM   #153
BigJake
Rear Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

Avatar: The Last Airbender in its original form is well worth watching, by the way. You should totes check it out if you've never seen it, especially if you have any affection for either fantasy or martial arts (or both).

Ovation wrote: View Post
I still defend the filmmakers' right to choose the path they did. I do not in any way endorse the outcome of their choices.
Just as a final aside: the filmmakers' right to choose is not at issue. It's their right to choose whitewashing without facing criticism, disapproval, or outright boycotting that's at issue. Filmmakers have the perfect right to whitewash whatever they want, whenever they want. They absolutely do not have the right to social approval (or commercial approval) of that decision.
__________________
It's got electrolytes!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10 2014, 01:33 AM   #154
Ovation
Vice Admiral
 
Location: La Belle Province or The Green Mountain State (depends on the day of the week)
Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

BigJake wrote: View Post
Avatar: The Last Airbender in its original form is well worth watching, by the way. You should totes check it out if you've never seen it, especially if you have any affection for either fantasy or martial arts (or both).

Ovation wrote: View Post
I still defend the filmmakers' right to choose the path they did. I do not in any way endorse the outcome of their choices.
Just as a final aside: the filmmakers' right to choose is not at issue. It's their right to choose whitewashing without facing criticism, disapproval, or outright boycotting that's at issue. Filmmakers have the perfect right to whitewash whatever they want, whenever they want. They absolutely do not have the right to social approval (or commercial approval) of that decision.
On this point, we are in complete agreement.
Ovation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10 2014, 02:06 AM   #155
BigJake
Rear Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

^ Cool beans.
__________________
It's got electrolytes!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10 2014, 06:55 AM   #156
JD5000
Commander
 
JD5000's Avatar
 
Location: Jackson, WY
Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

Can we talk about why there aren't any ginger Klingons now? I'm feeling oppressed.
JD5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10 2014, 07:18 AM   #157
BigJake
Rear Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

Please tell me you're not about to ask us where your "White Entertainment Television" network is.
__________________
It's got electrolytes!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10 2014, 08:01 AM   #158
JD5000
Commander
 
JD5000's Avatar
 
Location: Jackson, WY
Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

Don't get me started on ginger portrayal in popular media. If you disagree with me, I will steal your soul and add you to countless other freckles.
JD5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10 2014, 08:28 AM   #159
BigJake
Rear Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

Yes, given the narrow, limited range of roles available to today's gingers I guess you have a point. Bring on the ginger Klingons by all means, so long as they don't contribute to gingerism.
__________________
It's got electrolytes!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10 2014, 08:41 AM   #160
JD5000
Commander
 
JD5000's Avatar
 
Location: Jackson, WY
Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

Ha ha, we're all prejudiced to a point. i.e., it's OK to make fun of me because I'm a redhead, but it's not OK to make fun of black people because they are black. Don't you dare cast a brunette of any race in the story of my life, if you have the misfortune of directing it.

Point being; race is irrelevant. Sit back and enjoy the story, for Buddha's sake! Jesus! If you criticize the filmmakers for choosing Ben for the role of Khan, you're stereotyping just as much as everything you're trying to criticize (in less words).

Your soul now resides on my left shoulder.

Last edited by JD5000; March 10 2014 at 08:54 AM.
JD5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10 2014, 09:15 AM   #161
BigJake
Rear Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

JD5000 wrote: View Post
Point being; race is irrelevant.
Your planet must be very nice.
__________________
It's got electrolytes!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10 2014, 11:41 AM   #162
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

BigJake wrote: View Post

[spoiler="... and that's a pretty serious misunderstanding of a pretty basic dynamic..."]
Guys, could it be possible to limit the amount of text in the spoiler tag to less than that of a novella ? It's messing up the formatting. Thanks.
__________________
And that's my opinion.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10 2014, 01:55 PM   #163
BigJake
Rear Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

^ I would've loved to do an edit when I saw that, but for some reason it won't allow me to Edit that post. Sorry 'bout that.
__________________
It's got electrolytes!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10 2014, 10:44 PM   #164
M'Sharak
Definitely Herbert. Maybe.
 
M'Sharak's Avatar
 
Location: Terra Inlandia
Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

Belz... wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post

[spoiler="... and that's a pretty serious misunderstanding of a pretty basic dynamic..."]
Guys, could it be possible to limit the amount of text in the spoiler tag to less than that of a novella ? It's messing up the formatting. Thanks.
I found that opening the second spoiler (of the three in Jake's post) and then closing it again fixed the problem for me, but that may only work in Opera.

BigJake wrote:
^ I would've loved to do an edit when I saw that, but for some reason it won't allow me to Edit that post. Sorry 'bout that.
I've tried taking some of the spoiler tag content and placing it inside. See if it works.
__________________
"Recently my 8 year-old cousin asked me, with a wicked twinkle in his eye, if I'd ever microwaved a banana. I'm terrified to try, but I'm sure whatever happens—splattering, abrupt, radioactive—sounds exactly like an Annie Clark guitar solo."
M'Sharak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11 2014, 12:01 AM   #165
BigJake
Rear Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Khan's Into Darkness Appearance change finally explained

Huh. Still won't let me edit, oddly enough. Sure looks better though, thanks M'Sharak.
__________________
It's got electrolytes!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigJake is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:33 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.