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Old February 27 2014, 12:54 AM   #31
Crypto
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

Let's try to get back to a Trek-centered discussion, please.
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Old February 27 2014, 01:16 AM   #32
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

Sometimes it can be easeir to effect change on the inside rather than on the outside, or as an ally or close firend saying to one another that's not a good idea, rather than an enemy or unfriendly nation saying it to another.
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Old February 27 2014, 01:34 AM   #33
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

Whether or not the Federation should be allied with the Klingon Empire was a central policy question in the 2379 Special Federation Presidential Election in the novels. The election was featured in the book A Time for War, A Time for Peace, by TrekBBS's own KRAD. Federation Special Emmissary Arafel "Fel" Pagro of Ktar ran against Governor Nanietta Bacco of Cestus III; Pagro was firmly against the alliance with Qo'noS because of its policies of conquest and oppression, while Bacco was in favor of continuing the alliance. Pagro's views are self-explanatory; in Bacco's view, the alliance with the Klingons not only prevented war with Qo'noS, and not only assisted in the defense of the Federation in times of conflict against mutual foes, but also was serving to gradually, and peacefully, influence to the Klingons to abandon their imperialistic policies -- she cited the fact that Klingon expansion had significantly decreased since signing the Khitomer Accords.

In the end, Bacco won the election. A year later in the book Articles of the Federation, Chancellor Martok agreed to end the Empire's territorial expansion program at a summit with President Bacco, viewing the program as too resource-expensive for too little return.

Just FYI.
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Old February 27 2014, 03:45 AM   #34
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

Militarily, the Accords are probably like NATO: a mutual defense pact, but neither side is obligated to help the other in wars of aggression.

The Federation doesn't help the Klingon Empire conquer territory; the two parties only cooperate on mutual matters and do no attack each other.
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Old February 27 2014, 06:02 AM   #35
Lance
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
Whatever means under which those planets originally fell into Klingon rule, the reality is that it's their affair, not the Federation's. That might sound like a harsh line in the sand, but it's the truth.
That doesn't mean you openly support it, that just means you don't declare war on your allies to rectify the situation.
Well, let's say there are skirmishes on some of these worlds, and that the native populations want rid of the Klingon 'empire'. Fine, they make some waves, and they get their message out there to the great powers of the quadrant.

But unless it's a big enough revolt to affect the Alpha Quadrant as a whole, politically or socially, then the Federation can only lodge their disapproval of Klingon imperial might, and at a stretch it might even propose sanctions against the Klingons until they resolve the situation, but what Starfleet can't do is simply fly a fleet in there and liberate the subjugated peoples of said world (as the OP seems to be suggesting they should). Because ultimately, it's still an internal Klingon affair, and from what we see on Star Trek the peace accords didn't exactly tear down the boundaries of political independence (the Klingons still aren't Federation members by any stretch). All Khitomer really achieved was the dismantling of the military application of both major powers. Sending in the fleet to clean up the situation on the rebelling Klingon occupied planet would only be a one-way ticket to war with the Klingon empire. And the Feds don't want that.

(Of course, TNG elaborated further: "Yesterday's Enterprise" suggests that a tension evidently still existed between the Klingons and the Federation even in the time of the 1701-C's destruction, and "Aquiel" goes on to state for the record that there were Klingons conducting raids on Federation planets as recently as only a decade before the events of "Encounter At Farpoint", although this latter case could of course simply by renegade groups of Klingons whose actions are not sanctioned by the high council.)
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Old February 27 2014, 12:17 PM   #36
Robert Comsol
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

Lance wrote: View Post
TNG elaborated further: "Yesterday's Enterprise" suggests that a tension evidently still existed between the Klingons and the Federation even in the time of the 1701-C's destruction.
Lt. Castillo mentioned that the Federation and the Klingons had been conducting peace treaty negotiations. However, since director David Carson said we were watching a "parallel" time line, I consider the possibility that these events took place in an alternate universe, add to this that a "Klingon-Federation war" was a fabrication of Q in the original draft for "Deja Q", two episodes prior to "Yesterday's Enterprise".

I'd rather go with "The Emissary":

K'EHLEYR: Two days ago, Starbase Three Three Six received an automated transmission from a Klingon ship, the T'Ong. That ship was sent out over 75 years ago.
RIKER: When the Federation and the Klingon Empire were still at war.

("still at war" ?!? Didn't TOS and the movies suggest they had reached some kind of cease-fire, at least?)

UPDATE:
"The Emissary" supposedly takes place in 2365, 75 years ago would have been 2290.
Events in ST VI-TUC supposedly took place in 2293.

Lance wrote: View Post
And "Aquiel" goes on to state for the record that there were Klingons conducting raids on Federation planets as recently as only a decade before the events of "Encounter At Farpoint", although this latter case could of course simply by renegade groups of Klingons whose actions are not sanctioned by the high council.
Yes, and in "Heart of Glory" we did see examples of such renegades:

KORRIS: Brother, this peace, this alliance, is like a living death to warriors like us.
...
KORRIS: It was one of our own cruisers sent to bring us back.
WORF: You destroyed a Klingon vessel?
KORRIS: I did not want to battle our brothers. I had no choice. They had been corrupted by the illusion of peace.

And here are two samples from TOS that reflect the Klingon point-of-view.

From "Errand of Mercy":

KIRK: We have legitimate grievances against the Klingons. They've invaded our territory, killed our citizens. They're openly aggressive. They've boasted that they'll take over half the galaxy.
KOR: Why not? We're the stronger! You've tried to hem us in, cut off vital supplies, strangle our trade! You've been asking for war!
KIRK: You're the ones who issued the ultimatum to withdraw from the disputed areas!
KOR: They are not disputed! They're clearly ours.

From "The Day of the Dove":

MARA: We have always fought. We must. We are hunters, Captain, tracking and taking what we need. There are poor planets in the Klingon systems, we must push outward if we are to survive.
KIRK: There's another way to survive. Mutual trust and help.

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; February 27 2014 at 12:41 PM.
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Old February 27 2014, 09:30 PM   #37
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

Shik wrote: View Post
I was actually using the same terms as the person I quoted to make a point of irony, or perhaps absurdity. But one has to admit there's a lot that the two groups don't see eye-to-eye on. Max Barry's Jennifer Government takes it to its extremes.
I find the EU and US have as much in common as feasible without becoming de facto the same culture - as for differences, one is left-leaning (on most issues), the other right-leaning (on most issues).

If you tried to make a point of irony/absurdity vis a vis the klingon empire/the federation - this is, of course, your prerogative.
I find the absurdity of your comparison nullifies its irony, though, seeing how the klingon empire is the opposite of the federation; their values - iron age ruthless conquerors vs politically correct diplomats - could not be more different.
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Old February 27 2014, 10:28 PM   #38
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
K'EHLEYR: That ship was sent out over 75 years ago.

RIKER: When the Federation and the Klingon Empire were still at war.

("still at war" ?!? Didn't TOS and the movies suggest they had reached some kind of cease-fire, at least?)
Without looking up the exact dates, the Klingon ship would have been sent out about a decade after the events of TUC, plenty of time for the Federation and the Empire to have returned to a adversarial relationship.

And that's assuming that the events of TUC did result in peace. The storyline of Yesterday's Enterprise shows that the relationship wasn't firmly friendly.



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Old February 27 2014, 10:49 PM   #39
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

2365 - 75 = 2290.
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Old February 27 2014, 11:35 PM   #40
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

^ Okay, now when was TUC?





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Old February 27 2014, 11:44 PM   #41
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

2293.
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Old February 28 2014, 01:46 AM   #42
Lance
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

I think Robert Comsol's post above is very interesting, because it makes it clear that the conflict was not a one way street, and that the Klingons felt themselves to be somewhat persecuted by the Federation. It wasn't simply the case of there being stereotypical "good guys" and "bad guys", both sides have always been more like each other than either is probably willing to admit.
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Old February 28 2014, 04:52 PM   #43
Shik
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

Lance wrote: View Post
I think Robert Comsol's post above is very interesting, because it makes it clear that the conflict was not a one way street, and that the Klingons felt themselves to be somewhat persecuted by the Federation. It wasn't simply the case of there being stereotypical "good guys" and "bad guys", both sides have always been more like each other than either is probably willing to admit.
Which is what happens with radically different philosophies. No doubt the Klingons felt they were in fact fighting for their very lives against Federation hegemony (a point which I used in my own written histories), which--given how close Qo'noS was to the border (another thing not to get me started on)--is a very real possibility. Here's this weird amalgamation of races not enslaving each other but working together--that's WEIRD.And they preach peace & love &..yuck. Killl it with disruptor fire. Basically, they felt about the UFP as we do about Hare Krishnas at the airport. (Do Krishnas even GO to the airport anymore?)
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Old March 1 2014, 12:50 PM   #44
Elvira
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
KIRK: They've invaded our territory, killed our citizens. They're openly aggressive.

KOR: You've tried to hem us in, cut off vital supplies, strangle our trade
What I've alway taken from this is, the Federation initial response to Klingon violence was economic measures.

Non-violent sanctions, if there were a interstellar banking system, the Federation probably attempted to freeze the Klingon's assets.

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Old March 2 2014, 10:38 PM   #45
Robert Comsol
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

Hmm...couldn't it be that the Klingons reacted to the sanctions of the Federation?

Maybe the Federation was aware of Klingon atrocities within their territories and tried to slow these down, somehow

Found this official 24th Century UFP policy mentioned in "Ensign Ro" worth mentioning:

PICARD: Then I don't understand why you are unwilling?
KEEVE: Because you are innocent bystanders. You were innocent bystanders for decades as the Cardassians took our homes, as they violated and tortured our people in the most hideous ways imaginable, as we were forced to flee.
PICARD: We were saddened by those events but they occurred within the designated borders of the Cardassian Empire.
KEEVE: And the Federation is pledged not to interfere in the internal affairs of others. How convenient that must be for you, to turn a deaf ear to those who suffer behind a line on a map.
PICARD: Well, I'm not here to debate Federation policy with you, but I can offer you assistance.


Bob
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