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Old February 25 2014, 08:08 PM   #16
-Brett-
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

Into Darkness wrote: View Post
The Federations job and purpose should be to free all planets from subjugation. The Federation should build a strong military and take down the Klingon Empire and free all those worlds.
Federation! Fuck yeah! Off to save the motherfuckin' day yeah!

Seriously though. How's that ideology working out for Uncle Sam?
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Old February 25 2014, 08:15 PM   #17
JirinPanthosa
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

Yeah, that's another thing that the Federation has proven worthy to sign any piece of paper that they think will prevent an armed conflict. They agreed to give the Romulans a huge technological advantage just to prevent a war.

It'd be great if it were possible to just go after every dictatorship and liberate its people. As current real world events seem to prove, no matter how much of a military advantage you have, the war will be far more costly in both resources and lives than you expect it to, the civilian population will not cooperate with a foreign force that is bombing their back yards, and most of the time once you're gone another warlord will just march in be just as bad.

America has had more success promoting freedom just by selling coca-cola than it ever has through military action, at least in the last 70 or so years.

Rules of sovereignty are still observed in the 24th century.
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Old February 25 2014, 09:54 PM   #18
QCzar
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

I'm sure somewhere in the Federation's constitution there are mandates requiring it to act in the best interests of its member worlds. While I'm certain that includes upholding its core principles, it surely also includes not shooting itself in the foot.

No matter how high minded its ideals, the UFP is still a political entity and has to function in a galaxy outside itself that isn't just populated with half-naked space hippies and talking germs. Where powerful factions exist that well and truly mean it harm and where one misstep could be the difference between peace and cataclysmic war.

It is a game of competing self-interests and it's much easier to lose than to win. If you can convince an old enemy that your mutual interests intersect, that a united front can waylay the ambitions of a mutual foe and that the benefits of peace between you far outweigh the costs, you'd be a fool not to go for it. Even the most lobeless Ferengi could see that.

Alliances can be either fairly simple things (like the brief one between the Dominion and Starfleet in DS9 "To the Death") or incredibly complex ones, which the Federation itself arguably is. We've only ever gotten a very basic viewing of this alliance but, especially during TNG, I got the feeling there was way more to it than what we saw.

Whatever the specifics, it has obviously benefited the Federation, and indeed the Alpha Quadrant itself, much more than it has occasionally harmed it. A continuous cold war or, even worse, a hot one between the two would have been disastrous for both sides, leaving them more open to the expansionist desires of their many foes.

I dare say that forging this alliance is one of the most important acts the Federation carried out on the behalf of its members and citizens in the entire 24th century. The benefit to the Klingons is equally clear as, despite their bluffing, they were likely no match for the Romulans in any way. It may very well be contemptible (I'm sure some Klingons feel the same way), but the alternative would've probably resulted in the world we saw in "Yesterday's Enterprise".
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Old February 25 2014, 10:20 PM   #19
MacLeod
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

Throught Human history treaties have been signed between parties with philosphical differences. The Western Allies and Russia during WWII.

Empires can change overtime as well yet retain the same name.
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Old February 26 2014, 02:35 AM   #20
Lance
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

It isn't just 'early instalment weirdness' in TNG season one which suggests the Klingons don't operate an Empire along the lines of "subjugate and conquer" anymore. IIRC, doesn't DS9 have a Klingon restaurant on its promenade? This indicates that the Klingons did ultimately focus their energies on creating other, less aggressive methods of wealth production.

While I don't doubt in the TOS era they were definitely up for a little slash-and-burn on lesser planets and peoples, that's clearly not how the post-alliance Klingon Empire works.

(Perhaps to the point of not feeling very much like the Klingons as we knew them in TOS, but hey-ho. The TOS Klingon Empire was clearly much more militarized, just like the TOS Starfleet was apparently more militarized than that of the TNG era. Different times, different priorities.)

And as to the Federation's side of things, even if the Klingons do still have countless planets that are being run in a tyrannical way, the reality is it *isn't* Starfleet's job to "free" those planets. It's not. In fact, doing so would be expressly against the prime directive. Whatever means under which those planets originally fell into Klingon rule, the reality is that it's their affair, not the Federation's. That might sound like a harsh line in the sand, but it's the truth.
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Old February 26 2014, 06:33 AM   #21
JirinPanthosa
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

Lance wrote: View Post
Whatever means under which those planets originally fell into Klingon rule, the reality is that it's their affair, not the Federation's. That might sound like a harsh line in the sand, but it's the truth.
That doesn't mean you openly support it, that just means you don't declare war on your allies to rectify the situation.

The TV series is always very vague about the status of Klingon Empire member worlds other than Kronos. But if sapient rights are being violated it's everyone's affair.
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Old February 26 2014, 02:34 PM   #22
MNM
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

T'Girl wrote: View Post
The Federation did sign more than one treaty with the Cardassians, I've usually seen the Cardassians as "Klingon-lite."

Politics make for strange bed-fellows.
True. though the stuff they signed with the Cardassians wasnt nearly as involved as the Alliance they did with the Klingons.

And like has been said, its politics, its beneifical, the treaty made the Fed/Klingon alliance the dominant Quadrant power.

Doesnt make the Federation any less hypocritical to ally with them though.
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Old February 26 2014, 06:11 PM   #23
Kevman7987
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

-Brett- wrote: View Post
Into Darkness wrote: View Post
The Federations job and purpose should be to free all planets from subjugation. The Federation should build a strong military and take down the Klingon Empire and free all those worlds.
Federation! Fuck yeah! Off to save the motherfuckin' day yeah!

Seriously though. How's that ideology working out for Uncle Sam?
Yes! It is time for the Federation to make the stars run hot pink and green with the blood of their enemies! THE GALAXY SHALL TREMBLE BEFORE THE POWER OF THE UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS!

BRING ME THE HEAD OF THE PRAETOR!
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Old February 26 2014, 07:53 PM   #24
Shik
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

Lance wrote: View Post
It isn't just 'early instalment weirdness' in TNG season one which suggests the Klingons don't operate an Empire along the lines of "subjugate and conquer" anymore. IIRC, doesn't DS9 have a Klingon restaurant on its promenade? This indicates that the Klingons did ultimately focus their energies on creating other, less aggressive methods of wealth production.
So...wait. You're saying that warriors don't like to eat out once in a while? That literally feeding the engines of war is not a valued & honorable position?
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Old February 26 2014, 09:09 PM   #25
T'Girl
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

-Brett- wrote: View Post
Seriously though. How's that ideology working out for Uncle Sam?
worked out fairly well in the first and second world wars, and for south korea, most of central america, eastern europe in the cold war.

not always admittedly.

more wins than losses though.

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Old February 26 2014, 10:23 PM   #26
PhoenixClass
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

T'Girl wrote: View Post
-Brett- wrote: View Post
Seriously though. How's that ideology working out for Uncle Sam?
worked out fairly well in the first and second world wars, and for south korea, most of central america, eastern europe in the cold war.

not always admittedly.

more wins than losses though.

Wow, I don't even...

The US supported dictatorships and death squads and overthrew democratically elected governments in the Americas.

The US did not invade Eastern Europe and free those countries under Soviet domination (as suggested that the Federation do to the Klingon Empire and which prompted Brett's question). The domination ended only when the Soviet government did.

South Korea is a mixed case. It's government was repressive (inlcuding being run by generals rather than elected governments) until the late 1980s, and it has since become a recognizable democracy.

I will concede you World War 2.

There is a lot of propaganda around World War 1 so I am cautious about commenting on the history. I will point out, however, that the US did not join the League of Nations, which, while imperfect, would have helped evolve more cooperation between countries.
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Old February 26 2014, 10:55 PM   #27
Shik
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
-Brett- wrote: View Post
Seriously though. How's that ideology working out for Uncle Sam?
worked out fairly well in the first and second world wars, and for south korea, most of central america, eastern europe in the cold war.

not always admittedly.

more wins than losses though.

I will concede you World War 2.
I won't. World war II, which was a massive joint effort that was already 4 years underway when the US came to the party ("FASHionably late, dahling...") & was by no means about "freedom" as much as it was Boon & Otter saying "HE can't do that to our pledge..!" "Right, only WE can do that to our pledge!" Saving folks from subjugation? Right. And how WERE things afterwards for Jews? Oh, still kinda shitty? Well, the Slavs were OK, right? ...Handed over to the Commies, huh? Hm. How about the Romani? ...Deporatation programs & "Go home dirty Gypsy" even today? Really? Well...we freed the Jehovah's Witnesses & the Catholics at least!

Fuck, that's just the ETO. Seventy years on, there's big chunks of East Asia that love taking Japanese money & turning around to shit on their bed. At least when the Chinese invaded their territories in the past, they didn't try to work & rape them out of existence.
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Old February 26 2014, 11:28 PM   #28
Edit_XYZ
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

Shik wrote: View Post
Into Darkness wrote: View Post
So how can the Federation morally and ethically and in all good conscience become an ally and officially sign an alliance agreement with such an entity as the Klingon Empire?
The Klingon Empire goes against everything the Federation stands for.
Place it into modern times. How can any of the EU nations have an alliance with the US? The US goes against everything the EU stands for.

It's called "political expediency".
? US goes against everything EU stands for?
You don't know your history - not even the recent one. Either that, or you perceive your political ideology WAY out of proportion.
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Old February 26 2014, 11:36 PM   #29
Shik
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

I was actually using the same terms as the person I quoted to make a point of irony, or perhaps absurdity. But one has to admit there's a lot that the two groups don't see eye-to-eye on. Max Barry's Jennifer Government takes it to its extremes.
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Old February 27 2014, 12:06 AM   #30
PhoenixClass
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Re: The Federation / Klingon Alliance

Shik wrote: View Post
PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
worked out fairly well in the first and second world wars, and for south korea, most of central america, eastern europe in the cold war.

not always admittedly.

more wins than losses though.

I will concede you World War 2.
I won't. World war II, which was a massive joint effort that was already 4 years underway when the US came to the party ("FASHionably late, dahling...") & was by no means about "freedom" as much as it was Boon & Otter saying "HE can't do that to our pledge..!" "Right, only WE can do that to our pledge!" Saving folks from subjugation? Right. And how WERE things afterwards for Jews? Oh, still kinda shitty? Well, the Slavs were OK, right? ...Handed over to the Commies, huh? Hm. How about the Romani? ...Deporatation programs & "Go home dirty Gypsy" even today? Really? Well...we freed the Jehovah's Witnesses & the Catholics at least!

Fuck, that's just the ETO. Seventy years on, there's big chunks of East Asia that love taking Japanese money & turning around to shit on their bed. At least when the Chinese invaded their territories in the past, they didn't try to work & rape them out of existence.
My unstated reason for ceding the point was that, when it comes to Nazis, US self-interest and the interests of the human race in general are the same (i.e. to get rid of them, and they wouldn't go peacefully) I was just speaking narrowly on that basis.
The US pursued it owns selfish interests immediately after the war (and, of course, during).
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