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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old March 11 2014, 10:55 PM   #31
Timo
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

...Especially if all of them were as fond of Khan as Kirk seemed to be. "He's a cool guy who could teach us all a thing or two, but the stupid peasants fear and hate Augments, so we have to stay mum."

But it might just as well be that Kirk thought Starfleet consisted of stupid peasants and would not understand his own desire to let Khan live and thrive. It would be Kirk's choice what to tell both Starfleet and the putative McGivers family; the only ones who might contradict him would be the trusted fellow officers at Khan's "trial", and the redshirts involved in beaming him and his wife down, and we know redshirts don't like to rock the boat (see e.g. "Turnabout Intruder").

Whether it's Kirk lying to the family, or Kirk lying to Starfleet and the family, or Starfleet lying to the family, we have precedent, sort of. Kirk clearly hid what really happened to Gary Mitchell and Elizabeth Dehner, and later to Will Decker and Ilia, using the very "missing in action" method of obfuscation. His motivation in the former would be to protect the professional reputations of his friend and the woman who saved his life, thus he'd hide the truth from Starfleet as well as from the general public. In the latter, the peasants might again be better off not knowing that Starfleet officers can become gods or better, but this time Starfleet might well be told.

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Old March 11 2014, 11:02 PM   #32
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

if Ceti Alpha VI had never exploded Khan and his people would've built an empire...then developed spaceships/used them to hijack Federation ships...then tried to overthrow humanity again
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Old March 11 2014, 11:15 PM   #33
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

I sort of doubt that. Relying only on basic 20th century technologies, the sort of stuff Kirk would be willing to give him, would get Khan nowhere in building an empire - they couldn't even build an interstellar transmitter to lure somebody in to take them to another star system. And "Space Seed" makes the point that nobody (but Kirk) goes to the area where the Botany Bay was found, and Ceti Alpha probably wouldn't be far from there for a number of reasons. ST2 only reinforces that: Ceti Alpha is not far from the Mutara Nebula, a place suitably remote for a secretive research outpost, and a region where our heroes are very surprised to meet a fellow starship.

Even on a paradise planet, Khan himself would be long dead before any empire would arise, and his great-great-great-grandkids wouldn't be much better off yet, either. Ceti Alpha V before the calamity was supposed to be harsh rather than paradisaical, too.

Add the part Kirk probably didn't consider: a couple of dozen Augments on the same empty planet is likely to create a couple of dozen fighting factions in no time flat...

As regards the explosion of Ceti Alpha VI (or what Khan believed was an explosion, and never mind how he could tell), there's no need to assume it would have been predictable by the means at Spock's disposal. Our heroes did not have any knowledge of spontaneously exploding planets in "Doomsday Machine", so such things probably aren't natural phenomena: either they happen because an intellect is involved (might have been the case with CA VI, too), or then they do happen spontaneously but so seldom as to count as "unnatural".

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Old March 12 2014, 12:07 AM   #34
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Khan 2.0 wrote: View Post
if Ceti Alpha VI had never exploded Khan and his people would've built an empire...then developed spaceships/used them to hijack Federation ships...then tried to overthrow humanity again
Khan was starting with sticks and stones and no scientific research or manufacturing base to speak of. Plus there was only 80 of them. Given about a thousand or two thousand years, they may have become a problem for whatever interstellar power controlled the area at the time.
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Old March 12 2014, 12:48 AM   #35
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Timo wrote: View Post
But it might just as well be that Kirk thought Starfleet consisted of stupid peasants and would not understand his own desire to let Khan live and thrive. It would be Kirk's choice what to tell both Starfleet and the putative McGivers family; the only ones who might contradict him would be the trusted fellow officers at Khan's "trial", and the redshirts involved in beaming him and his wife down, and we know redshirts don't like to rock the boat (see e.g. "Turnabout Intruder").

Whether it's Kirk lying to the family, or Kirk lying to Starfleet and the family, or Starfleet lying to the family, we have precedent, sort of. Kirk clearly hid what really happened to Gary Mitchell and Elizabeth Dehner, and later to Will Decker and Ilia, using the very "missing in action" method of obfuscation. His motivation in the former would be to protect the professional reputations of his friend and the woman who saved his life, thus he'd hide the truth from Starfleet as well as from the general public. In the latter, the peasants might again be better off not knowing that Starfleet officers can become gods or better, but this time Starfleet might well be told.

Timo Saloniemi
This is full of holes.

In each event Kirk is making log entries as things happen. We can assume other officers are as well. You're suggesting that Kirk and his command crew are routinely going back and falsifying records in a way that makes what Ben Finney did look like, "Oops, sorry. Made a boo-boo." It's nonsense.

The official records describe what had been happening to Mitchell and Dehner. All we heard at the end is that Kirk wanted their official records to end as them giving their lives in the performance of their duty. It doesn't automatically mean Kirk falsified how they died. Dehner did actually die trying to save Kirk's life and possibly the rest of the Enterprise's crew.

Kirk can still report to Starfleet what he did with Khan and then they can decide what to do with Khan: go get him or leave him where he is until they decide what to do, if ever. Starfleet might even order Kirk not to go back there. It's now out of Kirk's hands. If nothing else Kirk has bought Starfleet and the Federation time to decide what to do. He certainly has no reason to falsify his records. This includes the status of McGivers where it's now Starfleet's concern to do what they think needs to be done.

Kirk and his officers don't have to falsify their logs in regards to Decker and Ilia since they don't really know what happened to them. They report what they saw as well as their own opinions/conclusion that Decker and Ilia might not actually be dead, but missing.
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Old March 12 2014, 05:43 AM   #36
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Timo wrote: View Post
I'd wager every GO includes a full range of punishments, only most of those aren't applicable in the circumstances of a given day.
Why? A general order is just an order issued to all personnel within a command. The punishment for disobeying should be the same as the punishment for disobeying any other order, unless otherwise specified.

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In "The Menagerie," Commodore Mendez says that violation of General Order 7 -- the prohibition of any contact with Talos IV -- carries the only death penalty left on the books. Considering what the Talosians were capable of, I'd say there was a pretty good reason for that.
In light of some of what the Enterprise encountered later on, though, this seems either overblown or too uniquely applied. How about hands-off/no visit for Organia? Or Triskelion? Or the world of the Metrons, which they did have an exact location for while pursuing the Gorn ship?
Did we ever hear the exact wording of the order? Maybe GO7 is a whole list of forbidden planets that's periodically updated.
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Old March 12 2014, 08:44 AM   #37
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Khan 2.0 wrote: View Post
the end of STID got me thinking back to Space Seed. Why didn't kirk notify Starfleet and get khan and co put back in storage ( in the botany bay and then stick it in some secure area 51 type place)instead of plopping him on Ceti Alpha V to run riot
You see, Kirk was a big fan of frozen pizza, so he loaded up the Botany Bay with it, talking it in tow for a long time afterwards. Thus Khan and his crew just had to resettle on Seti Alpha V (or was it VI?) as their "ride was hijacked."

In an amazing coincidence, Kirk later re-fought the "Fight at the O.K. Corral" in Tombstone. Of course, Tombstone was Kirk's favorite frozen pizza.


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Old March 12 2014, 09:23 AM   #38
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

In each event Kirk is making log entries as things happen. We can assume other officers are as well. You're suggesting that Kirk and his command crew are routinely going back and falsifying records in a way that makes what Ben Finney did look like, "Oops, sorry. Made a boo-boo." It's nonsense.
Naah, that's canon. We hear Kirk promise to keep things secret after an episodeful of compromising log entries in, say, "Amok Time" or "Metamorphosis". That necessarily calls for forging of records...

...Or, rather, omitting of compromising entries. It's not as if Kirk would dictate on every second hour sharp or anything, so nobody would notice six entries missing simply by looking at the logbook contents or following the narrative. (Spock would take care of any anti-editing safeguards in the log program itself, supposedly.)

Add to this the fact that many log entries appear dictated well after the fact, basically as scripted narration on visual records. Kirk has the authority to decide what to tell and how to tell it. Does he have the authority to decide what to show, too? Well, visual records would have solved many a whodunnit, but they aren't available for such purposes, not in TOS; the only time they are shown available without anybody expressing "The Menagerie" style amazement is when a court of inquiry presents them. So, are they in a locked box Kirk can't tamper with? Possibly.

But they clearly don't cover the whole ship, or else Finney's going-to-hiding plot would have been exposed by the cameras. Kirk erased McGivers from existence in the briefing room, not on the bridge, to be sure.

Nevertheless, bridge visuals alone should reveal the whole "Space Seed" story to an inquiring court. But "Court Martial" also revealed that Kirk has the legal authority (or the skill, but that's unlikely) to do what Finney did; so does Spock (well, he could have the skill, but sharing the authority with the skipper sounds logical as well). The box should not be locked for Kirk or Spock, then.

He certainly has no reason to falsify his records.
How so? If he's the lone neo-Augment in Starfleet (well, he and his top officers), his career will be over when it becomes public knowledge that he has acted on his widely condemned political views by aiding and abetting Khan. And even if there are whole hordes of neo-Augments back in San Francisco who just hide their armbands beneath their sleeves, Kirk must keep up a deception for the sakes of those comrades of his, because the peasants do still hate Augments.

Why? A general order is just an order issued to all personnel within a command. The punishment for disobeying should be the same as the punishment for disobeying any other order, unless otherwise specified.
No contradiction there. The more general the order, the more specifics there have to be built in for the order to be applicable in practice. Any GO comes with a range of conditions, and any given condition could have a matching sanction. Say, if GO7 is about "planetary quarantine" or "making contact", things definitely warranting a low GO number, then there are probably dozens of types of quarantine and hundreds of scenarios for making contact - and a violation in one scenario might kill trillions at the very least while a violation in another might offend a clerk at the very most, so certainly the sanction chosen as the deterrent should be different.

Say, there's a law against assaulting a person. It comes with nuances, and those come with an allowed range of punishments (say, limits on jail term length), and then you enter the judges and the lawyers who decide what sort of an assault that was exactly. Today, we don't need a law that covers "assault on one's previous identity" or "postmeditated assault", but a world with time travel would need those; the UFP and Starfleet should have plenty of weird subcategories stashed "just in case", and never really seeing action, until something like Talos comes along.

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Old March 12 2014, 12:52 PM   #39
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

^^ A lot of the log entries come across more as tools of storytelling exposition rather than actual log entries particularly when they're revealing things the recorder can't possibly know as things are happening.

You are twisting this way out of proportion. In the examples you cited Kirk and crew have no reason to falsify records. In "Metamotphosis" Kirk might or might not have been blowing smoke when he tells Cochrane he'd keep Cochrane's existence secret. He doesn't really have to keep it secret from Starfleet High Command.

"Amok Time" is the only one which gets dicey and then again T'Pau gets him off the hook.
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Old March 12 2014, 02:56 PM   #40
Timo
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

A lot of the log entries come across more as tools of storytelling exposition rather than actual log entries particularly when they're revealing things the recorder can't possibly know as things are happening.
Which is certainly realistic, as Kirk couldn't dictate logs apace with the events of his full-throttle adventures. Real-world combat logs are masterpieces of abbreviation, managed by officers dedicated to the task; in contrast, skipper-dictated "memoirs" or "dear diaries" necessarily involve an element of hindsight, and probably nevertheless serve a valid function in helping Starfleet find out what the heck the skipper was thinking when doing X. Whether he tells the truth or lies is probably immaterial in that respect - lies often give more insight than plain dull truths.

In the examples you cited Kirk and crew have no reason to falsify records.
Dunno about that. I only said Kirk promised to lie, despite logs existing. Perhaps that was a filthy lie and Kirk is not to be trusted in general - but if so, whenever a real motivation pops up for him lying to his superiors, this means this pathological liar of a character will lie to them. For example in "Space Seed".

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Old March 12 2014, 03:14 PM   #41
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

How does he lie on "Space Seed?" He puts Khan planetside with no promise stated that they'll check back. He doesn't have to tell Khan his decision is logged (and will have to be explained). Now it's in Starfleet's and the Federation's hands. If they choose to leave Khan on Ceti Alpha 5 and order Kirk not to go back there then Kirk isn't to blame.

Why didn't Kirk simply turn Khan and his followers over to Federation authorities? Possibly for a similar reason as to what happened with McGiver aboard his own ship---there is a huge risk in transporting Khan and his group with a good possibility of Khan escaping yet again. Better to park them somewhere out of the way until the Federation decides what they want to do.
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Old March 12 2014, 03:24 PM   #42
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

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Old March 12 2014, 03:36 PM   #43
Timo
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

How does he lie on "Space Seed?"
Well, he tells Khan he slept for 200 years.

But what I meant was that Kirk would have every excuse and motivation, not to mention character history, to lie about "Space Seed" for the purposes of ST2:TWoK, as per the previous arguments.

Really, if Kirk has any sort of jurisdiction over Khan, he should also have the authority to act as the judge, jury and executioner on the spot. Starfleet can't count on its skippers phoning home for instructions every time something like this happens, not when mean time between calls is six months or so (as per all those stories of starships going missing or colonies falling silent). And the most important skill for a starship captain to master is when to yield gracefully, as most of the challenges he faces out there will be way out of his league anyway. Picard has to yield to Kevin Uxbridge and Q; Kirk has to yield to the Metrons, the Organians, Charlie Evans and so forth. If the permission to yield is written into the manuals, then it's inherently also a permission to show mercy to Khan, to donate him a bride along with a planet, and no questions asked.

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Old March 12 2014, 03:37 PM   #44
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

if the Ent D had found them Picard wouldve had them stored in the transporter or maybe the holodeck (but then Khan probably wouldve taken the ship easy while Picard was busy having meetings about what to do)
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Old March 12 2014, 03:51 PM   #45
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Timo wrote: View Post
How does he lie on "Space Seed?"
Well, he tells Khan he slept for 200 years.

But what I meant was that Kirk would have every excuse and motivation, not to mention character history, to lie about "Space Seed" for the purposes of ST2:TWoK, as per the previous arguments.

Timo Saloniemi
This is unfair retconning. Kirk didn't lie about 200 hundred years because the writers hadn't yet decided when TOS took place. And it's irrelevant what happens in TWOK because it wasn't even a glimmer of an idea. "Space Seed" was written as a standalone and nothing more.

Later Khan only blames Kirk for everything because he's essentially gone mad from sending fifteen years in a devestated environment, smething certainly not Kirk's fault.
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