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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old March 3 2014, 02:02 AM   #16
PCz911
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Space Seed ends on an optimistic note where they have a chance to grow and establish their own civilization. There's no reason to think it would result in The Wrath of Khan. Given the facts as Kirk knew them, the whole situation made sense.
I agree. No one could have predicted what happened to the planet. He was given an opportunity to start fresh. Very positive end note about forgiveness.

On a lighter note: he was probably worried about freezer burn.
Ba dum dum.

Hey, is this thing on? Freezer burn. Get it? Oh, never mind.
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Old March 3 2014, 04:04 AM   #17
scotpens
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Yeah, you don't really want to refreeze meat after it's already been frozen and thawed once.

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Old March 3 2014, 06:55 AM   #18
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

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Because that might as well be a death sentence. The ship's power would eventually fail, and there's no guarantee anyone would find them (and would you want them to?). Kirk's decision was logical. Give them a new start on some remote backwater and let them see what they can do. Also, let's not forget it was Khan's choice, not a sentence.
Exactly. Putting them back "in the freezer" would have been ruthless and inhumane under the circumstances. Kirk had no reason to suspect that this act of mercy would come back to bite him decades later.
No good deed goes unpunished.
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Old March 3 2014, 09:39 AM   #19
Brutal Strudel
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Because freezing people SHOULD go against enlightened 23rd Century standards of justice?
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Old March 5 2014, 01:26 AM   #20
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Space Seed ends on an optimistic note where they have a chance to grow and establish their own civilization. There's no reason to think it would result in The Wrath of Khan. Given the facts as Kirk knew them, the whole situation made sense.
That's because his Science Officer wasn't half doing his job. If Space Seed ended like:

"We are near the Ceti Alpha system. The planet number 5 has conditions to sustain life."
"Alright, we'll leave Khan there."
"However, my analysis of the scans show the planet number 6 is instable and likely to explode a few months from now. It will lay waste to the planet 5."
"Oh, too bad. Well we'll find some other place then. Warp 4 mr Sulu."

So much pain would be avoided. The green blooded goblin deserved the radiation poisoning he got.
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Old March 5 2014, 05:51 PM   #21
Khan 2.0
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

i think Spock knew CA VI was gonna go boom but though ' meh f**k em'

in fact he probably chose it for that very reason!

Last edited by Khan 2.0; March 5 2014 at 10:20 PM.
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Old March 5 2014, 09:41 PM   #22
BillJ
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Because freezing people SHOULD go against enlightened 23rd Century standards of justice?
So should the death penalty...
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Old March 6 2014, 01:53 AM   #23
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Khan 2.0 wrote: View Post
i think Spock knew CA VI was gonna go boom but though ' meh f**k em'

in fact he probably chose it for that very reason!

That's a good one.
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Old March 7 2014, 03:46 AM   #24
trekshark
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Lance wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
Because that might as well be a death sentence. The ship's power would eventually fail, and there's no guarantee anyone would find them (and would you want them to?). Kirk's decision was logical. Give them a new start on some remote backwater and let them see what they can do. Also, let's not forget it was Khan's choice, not a sentence.
Absolutely. TWOK ret cons it as having been "exile", something which was apparently forced upon Khan by Captain Kirk... but our only account of that in the movie is Khan's own, and he's had decades of bitterly twisting the facts inside his own head. Kirk became an outlet for Khan's anger over his little colony going wrong, Marla's death, everything that Khan the supposed superhuman was utterly helpless to prevent. It's misappropriated blame on Khan's part, really.

In reality, the decision made to put them on Ceti Alpha V in "Space Seed" was presented as being much more magnanimous and logical than that. And as you say, Khan in the episode sees it more as an opportunity for a new life, not as an exile being imposed upon him.
Khan did had a legitimate grievance with regards to no one from the Federation coming by to check on them though.
Did Kirk not tell Starfleet what he had done?
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Old March 7 2014, 04:20 AM   #25
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

BillJ wrote: View Post
Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Because freezing people SHOULD go against enlightened 23rd Century standards of justice?
So should the death penalty...
In "The Menagerie," Commodore Mendez says that violation of General Order 7 -- the prohibition of any contact with Talos IV -- carries the only death penalty left on the books. Considering what the Talosians were capable of, I'd say there was a pretty good reason for that.
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Old March 11 2014, 01:54 PM   #26
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

OTOH, when we next hear of General Orders and death penalties, the punishment has jumped over to GO4. For all we know, the constant discoveries of unimaginable horrors in deep space force the UFP to create specific death penalties (and possible other cruel and unusual punishments) almost monthly, and then abolish them as soon as the heroic Starfleet officers sort out the mess in question. Although never mind that - Starfleet officers have the mandate to kill wrongdoers without much in the way of due process, as demonstrated over several episodes, environments and eras. Khan would certainly fall into a category warranting deadly response, considering the villain himself used deadly force against Starfleet heroes (and let's forget for this once that Khan never actually killed anybody - he did appear to wish for Kirk to die in the depressurization chamber for real). Assembling a firing squad might be against regulations; pushing Khan out of an airlock with or without a pretentious "Oops!" demonstrably would not be.

Putting Khan back in the box faces technical and ethical hurdles, yes, but also tactical ones. Remember that Kirk found Khan. Now how likely is that? He's drifting in a spacecraft so difficult to detect that Kirk's capable sensors keep him misinformed about every important detail until the very end of the teaser. The only reason Kirk homes in is because Khan has turned on the ship's come-and-get-me beacon! We should ask ourselves whether a clever and desperate fugitive hoping to reach a destination undetected would do such a thing... And whether a clever and desperate supervillain hoping to lure in victims would. We never heard of any "destination", but we did see a supervillain in smooth action against a victim successfully lured in.

Putting Khan on a planet would thwart his nefarious plans all right. As for going to check on him... Why? Starfleet never checks on colonies. Sure, (government-sponsored?) researchers get an annual health check even though they always complain and sometimes shoot to kill, but "civilian" settlements prefer to be left alone, and typically are not heard of for decades, if ever. Heck, even the apparently prominent Deneva, well past "settlement" status, could remain absolutely silent for a year and not warrant a visit.

Khan bitching about Kirk not bothering to write was just another symptom of his blaming Kirk for his own shortcomings and woes, real and imagined.

As for Kirk not telling Starfleet what he had done, well, nobody does that in the Federation. Again, just review those cases where Kirk eventually does pay a visit to a Federation colony, installation or outpost, and stumbles upon something that has gone utterly unreported for ages. Clearly, keeping of truthful logs is at the captain's discretion...

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Old March 11 2014, 03:09 PM   #27
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

scotpens wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Because freezing people SHOULD go against enlightened 23rd Century standards of justice?
So should the death penalty...
In "The Menagerie," Commodore Mendez says that violation of General Order 7 -- the prohibition of any contact with Talos IV -- carries the only death penalty left on the books. Considering what the Talosians were capable of, I'd say there was a pretty good reason for that.
In light of some of what the Enterprise encountered later on, though, this seems either overblown or too uniquely applied. How about hands-off/no visit for Organia? Or Triskelion? Or the world of the Metrons, which they did have an exact location for while pursuing the Gorn ship?
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Old March 11 2014, 04:47 PM   #28
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

I'd wager every GO includes a full range of punishments, only most of those aren't applicable in the circumstances of a given day. But every now and then, something emerges that prompts Starfleet to activate the death penalty as regards the General Order about quarantining planets, specifically under circumstances X and Y, and specifically in the case of Talos. Or the right to torture next-of-kin as regards the General Order about time travel, specifically under circumstance Z, and specifically in the case of Captain Gearloose.

It's not specific as such - GO7 isn't about Talos, but about quarantine. It's just a matter of unlocking certain options at a time of major crisis, something only an exclusive club of really big Starfleet bosses can decide on, without having to explain themselves to anybody.

No doubt GO7 carries a penalty about going to the Klingon homeworld, or bothering the Metrons. But it's a different penalty, and can be waived on different conditions. As regards Talos, it was waived ex post facto in "The Menagerie", and for reasons that should have led to its complete and categorical waiving soon thereafter: the quarantine had already been proven completely ineffective, even with the death penalty deterrent, and apparently this did not matter (either because the Talosians weren't all that evil, or then because they already took over the Federation and nobody noticed, nobody could notice, and so it wasn't Starfleet's concern any more).

General Orders exist, but they are general. Captains apply them on specific cases. And sometimes the application involves not having to explain anything to anybody else.

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Old March 11 2014, 05:15 PM   #29
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

About Kirk never going back to check on Khan.

Wouldn't Marla McGivers' family ask Starfleet to go back and check up on HER at least, or try to appeal against Kirk's decision to leave her with him? I mean sure, she was utter treason what she did (and for pretty lame reasons to boot) but you'd think there'd be some objection to it from her family.

Unless she was an orphan or something.
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Old March 11 2014, 05:22 PM   #30
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Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Anwar wrote: View Post
About Kirk never going back to check on Khan.

Wouldn't Marla McGivers' family ask Starfleet to go back and check up on HER at least, or try to appeal against Kirk's decision to leave her with him? I mean sure, she was utter treason what she did (and for pretty lame reasons to boot) but you'd think there'd be some objection to it from her family.

Unless she was an orphan or something.
Her family was likely told she was missing in action. Starfleet wouldn't want anyone to know that 80 supermen had been deposited on a world somewhere.
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