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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old March 10 2014, 03:09 AM   #76
Joel_Kirk
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Re: The Redshirt Myth?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I don't believe, in universe, the deaths are seen as a source of amusement or celebrated.
But in fandom, and with people casually into Star Trek, it is.

(I wasn't too clear on that).

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

I'd like one example when this was done.
One example:
Online forums.
Still not in universe.

And I don't see a problem making light of the tropes of fiction.
Yeah, again, I wasn't talking about in-universe.

That's fine if you don't see a problem with it. I do, and I find it contradicts all the 'we are the world' aspect of Star Trek that some fans try to put on the series when death is made light of - again 'out of universe.'

As aforementioned, if you don't find a problem with it, that's on you. You're free to have that opinion.
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Old March 10 2014, 03:10 AM   #77
Creepy Critter
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Re: The Redshirt Myth?

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Redshirt Olsen's death - from the 2009 film - could have been prevented. He was just a bit too cocky and silly.

A personal observation: I always find it interesting that the death of individuals in redshirts are celebrated and is a source of amusement, in a universe where life is supposedly precious, as well as equality, enlightenment, etc.
I don't believe, in universe, the deaths are seen as a source of amusement or celebrated.
But in fandom, and with people casually into Star Trek, it is.

(I wasn't too clear on that).

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
A personal observation: I always find it interesting that the death of individuals in redshirts are celebrated and is a source of amusement, in a universe where life is supposedly precious, as well as equality, enlightenment, etc.
I'd like one example when this was done.
One example:
Online forums.
Thanks of clarifying, but I don't believe I can be fairly faulted for taking
"is a source of amusement, in a universe where life is supposedly precious, as well as equality, enlightenment, etc."
to mean
"is a source of amusement, in-universe."
I also don't have a problem making fun of corny elements of the show.
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Old March 10 2014, 03:11 AM   #78
Joel_Kirk
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Re: The Redshirt Myth?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I don't believe, in universe, the deaths are seen as a source of amusement or celebrated.
But in fandom, and with people casually into Star Trek, it is.

(I wasn't too clear on that).

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

I'd like one example when this was done.
One example:
Online forums.
Thanks of clarifying, but I don't believe I can be fairly faulted for taking
"is a source of amusement, in a universe where life is supposedly precious, as well as equality, enlightenment, etc."
to mean
"is a source of amusement, in-universe."
I've already answered this in post #76.
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Old March 10 2014, 03:13 AM   #79
Creepy Critter
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Re: The Redshirt Myth?

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
I've already answered this in post #76.
You mean that post you made before I had replied to your last reply to me? That post #76?
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Old March 10 2014, 05:31 AM   #80
Geoff Peterson
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Re: The Redshirt Myth?

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
]

Yeah, again, I wasn't talking about in-universe.

That's fine if you don't see a problem with it. I do, and I find it contradicts all the 'we are the world' aspect of Star Trek that some fans try to put on the series when death is made light of - again 'out of universe.'

As aforementioned, if you don't find a problem with it, that's on you. You're free to have that opinion.
Well some fans take a tv show a little too seriously. It's not a religion, a phiosophy or a blue print of the future. It's entertainment. Sure it can ask questions, enlighten and inform, but its still a tv show. And the people who watch are human beings who laugh and make jokes at tragedies both fictional and real. We can also separate the two. We can laugh at the constant redshirt deaths on a tv show and cry at the deaths of innocents in the real word. This doesn't make inhuman, inconsistent or unworthy.
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Old March 10 2014, 06:09 AM   #81
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Re: The Redshirt Myth?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
]

Yeah, again, I wasn't talking about in-universe.

That's fine if you don't see a problem with it. I do, and I find it contradicts all the 'we are the world' aspect of Star Trek that some fans try to put on the series when death is made light of - again 'out of universe.'

As aforementioned, if you don't find a problem with it, that's on you. You're free to have that opinion.
Well some fans take a tv show a little too seriously. It's not a religion, a phiosophy or a blue print of the future. It's entertainment. Sure it can ask questions, enlighten and inform, but its still a tv show. And the people who watch are human beings who laugh and make jokes at tragedies both fictional and real. We can also separate the two. We can laugh at the constant redshirt deaths on a tv show and cry at the deaths of innocents in the real word. This doesn't make inhuman, inconsistent or unworthy.
To further add too, whatever power we may think we have on this board (LOL), I'd like to point out that none of us have served on a warp-capable starship, none of us have enlisted in Starfleet, none of us wear red shirts only to be turned into a cube of powder and disintegrated. In essence, whatever we do here on these boards really has no impact on the source material of the past -- just because we laugh doesn't mean Picard laughs (especially if we're laughing 20 years after Patrick Stewart filmed his scenes).

I'm sorry, Joel_Kirk, but you might want to take a step back from the franchise there. I'm betting you grew up with Trek like the rest of us, but being able to separate reality from fiction is a pretty important thing to do here.
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Old March 10 2014, 06:15 AM   #82
Joel_Kirk
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Re: The Redshirt Myth?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
]

Yeah, again, I wasn't talking about in-universe.

That's fine if you don't see a problem with it. I do, and I find it contradicts all the 'we are the world' aspect of Star Trek that some fans try to put on the series when death is made light of - again 'out of universe.'

As aforementioned, if you don't find a problem with it, that's on you. You're free to have that opinion.
Well some fans take a tv show a little too seriously. It's not a religion, a phiosophy or a blue print of the future. It's entertainment. Sure it can ask questions, enlighten and inform, but its still a tv show. And the people who watch are human beings who laugh and make jokes at tragedies both fictional and real. We can also separate the two. We can laugh at the constant redshirt deaths on a tv show and cry at the deaths of innocents in the real word. This doesn't make inhuman, inconsistent or unworthy.
Yeeaah.

I think it's obvious we have different opinions on the matter.

I do agree it's entertainment, and many do take it seriously. However, this is the same show that supposedly broke racial barriers with having different people of different ethnicities and races and genders working together. The same show that champions a better future.

Yet, we are going to laugh at the constant deaths of redshirts on the show.

Yes, very consistent...

But, hey, you're free to own your opinion.

Cyke101 wrote: View Post

To further add too, whatever power we may think we have on this board (LOL), I'd like to point out that none of us have served on a warp-capable starship, none of us have enlisted in Starfleet, none of us wear red shirts only to be turned into a cube of powder and disintegrated. In essence, whatever we do here on these boards really has no impact on the source material of the past -- just because we laugh doesn't mean Picard laughs (especially if we're laughing 20 years after Patrick Stewart filmed his scenes).

I'm sorry, Joel_Kirk, but you might want to take a step back from the franchise there. I'm betting you grew up with Trek like the rest of us, but being able to separate reality from fiction is a pretty important thing to do here.
????

I don't understand this post.

Picard isn't real....so I don't know how you are telling me to separate reality from fiction, when you speak of that fictional character as an actual individual.

Maybe you can clarify?
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Old March 10 2014, 06:25 AM   #83
Geoff Peterson
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Re: The Redshirt Myth?

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
]

Yeah, again, I wasn't talking about in-universe.

That's fine if you don't see a problem with it. I do, and I find it contradicts all the 'we are the world' aspect of Star Trek that some fans try to put on the series when death is made light of - again 'out of universe.'

As aforementioned, if you don't find a problem with it, that's on you. You're free to have that opinion.
Well some fans take a tv show a little too seriously. It's not a religion, a phiosophy or a blue print of the future. It's entertainment. Sure it can ask questions, enlighten and inform, but its still a tv show. And the people who watch are human beings who laugh and make jokes at tragedies both fictional and real. We can also separate the two. We can laugh at the constant redshirt deaths on a tv show and cry at the deaths of innocents in the real word. This doesn't make inhuman, inconsistent or unworthy.
Yeeaah.

I think it's obvious we have different opinions on the matter.

I do agree it's entertainment, and many do take it seriously. However, this is the same show that supposedly broke racial barriers with having different people of different ethnicities and races and genders working together. The same show that champions a better future.

Yet, we are going to laugh at the constant deaths of redshirts on the show.

Yes, very consistent...
Hogans Heroes and Mission Impossible had already broke that barrier when the first episode of Star Trek aired.

What does laughing at fictional redshirts have to do with a future were everyone is treated as equals? Is dark humor somehow going to prevent that?

????

I don't understand this post.

Picard isn't real....so I don't know how you are telling me to separate reality from fiction, when you speak of that fictional character as an actual individual.

Maybe you can clarify?
Redshirts aren't real either. Finding humor in the rate at which they die their fictional deaths isn't indicative of an insensitive, backwards thinking person.
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Old March 10 2014, 06:28 AM   #84
Joel_Kirk
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Re: The Redshirt Myth?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Well some fans take a tv show a little too seriously. It's not a religion, a phiosophy or a blue print of the future. It's entertainment. Sure it can ask questions, enlighten and inform, but its still a tv show. And the people who watch are human beings who laugh and make jokes at tragedies both fictional and real. We can also separate the two. We can laugh at the constant redshirt deaths on a tv show and cry at the deaths of innocents in the real word. This doesn't make inhuman, inconsistent or unworthy.
Yeeaah.

I think it's obvious we have different opinions on the matter.

I do agree it's entertainment, and many do take it seriously. However, this is the same show that supposedly broke racial barriers with having different people of different ethnicities and races and genders working together. The same show that champions a better future.

Yet, we are going to laugh at the constant deaths of redshirts on the show.

Yes, very consistent...
Hogans Heroes and Mission Impossible had already broke that barrier when the first episode of Star Trek aired.

What does laughing at fictional redshirts have to do with a future were everyone is treated as equals? Is dark humor somehow going to prevent that?
Well, in truth, a lot of shows at that time had a 'black' character and claimed those characters were on equal footing, albeit, unless it came to romantic relationships. Then, there had to be some censorship. Of course, unless it was an Asian woman, then race suddenly didn't matter since she paired with a white male.

In any event, getting back to the redshirts: In a future where everyone is supposedly equal (heavy emphasis on 'supposedly')...and goodwill is supposedly the norm or, at least, championed...I would think that life would be considered precious.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Redshirts aren't real either. Finding humor in the rate at which they die their fictional deaths isn't indicative of an insensitive, backwards thinking person.
I guess you can look at it that way. Again, it's your opinion.

We look at that TNG 1st Season episode ('Q Less'...'Qpid'...'Qsomething')where Wesley Crusher is killed or skewered....and laugh and probably cheer at our tv screen. (At least, those who dislike the character do). On the other hand, we look at Star Trek II - the real one, not the 'remake' - and for some reason, get emotional when Spock 'dies.'

Then there are those who find redshirt deaths full of humor.

Last edited by Joel_Kirk; March 10 2014 at 06:59 AM.
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Old March 10 2014, 06:56 AM   #85
Geoff Peterson
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Re: The Redshirt Myth?

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post

Yeeaah.

I think it's obvious we have different opinions on the matter.

I do agree it's entertainment, and many do take it seriously. However, this is the same show that supposedly broke racial barriers with having different people of different ethnicities and races and genders working together. The same show that champions a better future.

Yet, we are going to laugh at the constant deaths of redshirts on the show.

Yes, very consistent...
Hogans Heroes and Mission Impossible had already broke that barrier when the first episode of Star Trek aired.

What does laughing at fictional redshirts have to do with a future were everyone is treated as equals? Is dark humor somehow going to prevent that?
Well, in truth, a lot of shows at that time had a 'black' character and claimed those characters were on equal footing, albeit, unless it came to romantic relationships. Then, there had to be some censorship. Of course, unless it was an Asian woman, then race suddenly didn't matter since she paired with a white male.

In any event, getting back to the redshirts: In a future where everyone is supposedly equal (heavy emphasis on 'supposedly')...and goodwill is supposedly the norm or, at least, championed...I would think that life would be considered precious.
How many Uhuracentric episodes were there, as opposed to Barney and Kinch episodes in IM and HH? Then there's Cosby's character in I-Spy,a co-lead. Star Trek fails that test.

So in the future fictional references to death will be banned, lest someone have an "inappropriate" reaction? Good news for English lit students, no Hamlet or Romeo and Juliet! Of course stand up comedy will be banned. Can't have folks joking about death!
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Old March 10 2014, 07:08 AM   #86
Joel_Kirk
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Re: The Redshirt Myth?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Hogans Heroes and Mission Impossible had already broke that barrier when the first episode of Star Trek aired.

What does laughing at fictional redshirts have to do with a future were everyone is treated as equals? Is dark humor somehow going to prevent that?
Well, in truth, a lot of shows at that time had a 'black' character and claimed those characters were on equal footing, albeit, unless it came to romantic relationships. Then, there had to be some censorship. Of course, unless it was an Asian woman, then race suddenly didn't matter since she paired with a white male.

In any event, getting back to the redshirts: In a future where everyone is supposedly equal (heavy emphasis on 'supposedly')...and goodwill is supposedly the norm or, at least, championed...I would think that life would be considered precious.
How many Uhuracentric episodes were there, as opposed to Barney and Kinch episodes in IM and HH? Then there's Cosby's character in I-Spy,a co-lead. Star Trek fails that test.
I think we're getting into a discussion of racial media representations rather than keeping on the redshirt discussion.

So in the future fictional references to death will be banned, lest someone have an "inappropriate" reaction? Good news for English lit students, no Hamlet or Romeo and Juliet! Of course stand up comedy will be banned. Can't have folks joking about death!
Well, I'm sure there will always be references to death. There is a reason for crime novels, thrillers, biographies, etc. In regards to your Shakespeare comment: Hamlet and Romeo are tragedies, so I don't think the audience was meant to laugh at the characters in those particular stories getting killed in the end. (I don't know where you're going with this).

And, I don't understand your reference to stand up comedy. You may also have to further clarify that.
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Old March 10 2014, 07:16 AM   #87
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Re: The Redshirt Myth?

In regards to your Shakespeare comment: Hamlet and Romeo are tragedies, so I don't think the audience was meant to laugh at the characters in those particular stories getting killed in the end.
But what if they do? Won't that be the end the civilization? How could we possibly claim to be enlightened when we laugh at death?

And, I don't understand your reference to stand up comedy. You may have to further clarify that
You've never heard a comedian make jokes involving death?
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Old March 10 2014, 07:36 AM   #88
Joel_Kirk
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Re: The Redshirt Myth?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
In regards to your Shakespeare comment: Hamlet and Romeo are tragedies, so I don't think the audience was meant to laugh at the characters in those particular stories getting killed in the end.
But what if they do? Won't that be the end the civilization? How could we possibly claim to be enlightened when we laugh at death?
It would be kind of odd.

Usually when something like that does happen in fiction, it's done by characters who are kind of loony.

If that were to happen in reality, I would think the people laughing at death (e.g. a body on the street, someone committing suicide on television) would have something crazy going on upstairs as well.

I knew someone from Turkey who didn't like to watch war films because it reminded her of previous wars she personally went through. And, there are people who are against 'comedic' stories taking place in German concentration camps. Also, I'm sure there will be many who would walk a fine line if any 'comedy' pieces were to take place during slavery or the civil rights. (And, I know there were people posting 'comedy' bits of the Trayvon Martin incident).

Death isn't necessarily a funny matter, depending on the individual and their background.

Now, with that said, there is a scene in the Michael Bay film Pearl Harbor where one character gets really, really cocky when a bomb drops near him and doesn't explode on impact. The character proclaims 'It's a dud! It's a dud!' before it proceeds to explode. Like Olsen, from Trek 2009, that character comes off as a dumbass...and, I'm sure people were laughing at both instances.

You've never heard a comedian make jokes involving death?
Yeah, I'm sure there are comedians who make jokes about death. I don't know any bits off the top of my head, though.

Alfred Hitchcock and Rod Serling also did bits of dark humor with their own television shows and movies.

Last edited by Joel_Kirk; March 10 2014 at 07:54 AM.
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Old March 10 2014, 02:39 PM   #89
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Re: The Redshirt Myth?

Joking about dark subjects like death isn't wrong. On the contrary -- humor is a coping mechanism, a way for us to face topics that make us uncomfortable. We can't go through life being constantly afraid and depressed; we wouldn't be able to function. So finding humor in subjects that frighten or depress us helps us maintain our emotional balance. Of course there's a right and a wrong context for it, but it's a basic part of human psychology.
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Old March 11 2014, 04:29 AM   #90
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Re: The Redshirt Myth?

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
In any event, getting back to the redshirts: In a future where everyone is supposedly equal (heavy emphasis on 'supposedly')...and goodwill is supposedly the norm or, at least, championed...I would think that life would be considered precious.
Please explain how viewers making jokes about redshirt deaths has any bearing on how much the people who live in a fictional universe value life. Life is considered precious there...just as it's considered precious here. But the value of the lives of fictional characters can vary considerably in the real world.
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