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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old May 27 2014, 07:42 AM   #1
AntiFacebook
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question about "Heart of stone"(spoiler inside)

In an early episode of the show, Odo explained his unique look by saying that it is difficult for him to make the nose and ears.
So later,when we saw more changelings for the first time in "The Search", it was natural to assume they look the way they are because they have the same trouble as Odo.
But in "Heart of stone" we saw a changeling that had no trouble with the nose and ears (as she looked exactly like Kira), so why would she have this look?
Do they explain it in later episodes?
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Old May 27 2014, 05:49 PM   #2
milquetoast
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Re: question about "Heart of stone"(spoiler inside)

AntiFacebook wrote: View Post
In an early episode of the show, Odo explained his unique look by saying that it is difficult for him to make the nose and ears.
So later,when we saw more changelings for the first time in "The Search", it was natural to assume they look the way they are because they have the same trouble as Odo.
But in "Heart of stone" we saw a changeling that had no trouble with the nose and ears (as she looked exactly like Kira), so why would she have this look?
Do they explain it in later episodes?
- It is not explained in another episode. The assumption is, is that they appear to Odo unfinished as a comfort to him. And also they don't strive to be like humanoids so why bother looking like one unless your actually trying to imitate one.

I have more trouble believing that the founders could imitate the behavior of those they replaced. To the point, that it took such a long time for anyone to realize that they were not who they were. Particularly when
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Old May 27 2014, 06:46 PM   #3
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Re: question about "Heart of stone"(spoiler inside)

In their defense, the characters don't have access to the creepy camera angles.
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Old May 27 2014, 09:11 PM   #4
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Re: question about "Heart of stone"(spoiler inside)

It does seem as if the Founders that Odo meets are essentially going "goochi goochi goo!" in front of the adorable if slow-witted and misguided little child...

An adult Founder apparently suffers from none of the limitations that Odo enumerates. They wouldn't be any good at infiltrating if they had to return to the goo state every 16 hours or so; couldn't split to stable little pieces when necessary; and couldn't do absolutely perfect imitations of faces, fingerprints and DNA.

It probably follows that DS9 was infested with Founders for basically the entire series, and some comfy chair or potted plant or wall ornament was always recording the minutest habits, preferences, discussions and encounters of our heroes, in preparation for future imitation.

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Old May 27 2014, 11:21 PM   #5
JirinPanthosa
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Re: question about "Heart of stone"(spoiler inside)

Also bear in mind that the Founders have access to fully sensory-convincing VR technology that they can build solely from the memories of the subjects. They probably studied Julian from the minds of those they captured in The Search.
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Old May 28 2014, 08:12 AM   #6
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Re: question about "Heart of stone"(spoiler inside)

I'm not convinced the simulations were built "solely" on brain-sucking. Founder agents would probably have been all over DS9 already anyway, so they could have brought back plenty of relevant data - after which the VR set would do what VR sets usually do, presenting a halfway convincing simulation and then suspending disbelief (with appropriate drugs or more direct brain-tickling in this scifi approach, rather than with just excitement and booze).

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Old May 28 2014, 02:03 PM   #7
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Re: question about "Heart of stone"(spoiler inside)

I've read in one of the DS9 novels that Odo suspected limits were built into his code so that he would never feel entirely comfortable amongst solids, which seems to me possible considering that when they made him human, they kept the flaws. That doesn't explain the female changeling appearing Odo-like, but perhaps when they're being "themselves", and not pretending to be an admiral or a doctor, they don't bother with small details like complete ears and freckles.
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Old May 28 2014, 02:14 PM   #8
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Re: question about "Heart of stone"(spoiler inside)

We don't really see the Founders being "themselves" - they always take forms when entertaining guests. Their free time might be spent exclusively in the goo form for all we know.

That the Alpha leader chose to hold an Odo-like face when interacting with his Cardassian and Breen allies might be explained by her wanting only one public face for the Alpha Quadrant -and Cardassians and Breen and their petty little victories and losses were nothing compared with Odo. Perhaps she even rubbed that fact in by keeping the Odo face?

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Old June 2 2014, 06:23 AM   #9
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Re: question about "Heart of stone"(spoiler inside)

I assumed that the Founders in 'The Search, Parts One & Two' (and for the rest of the series, the Female Founder) look the way they do because Odo was the first to come back to the Great Link. They took on his appearance to make him more at home, and as a way to recognize his achievement over the other Hundred.

The Female Founder kept the appearance in her interactions because that's how she was recognized. With a species as paranoid as the Cardassians, it was probably best to maintain that look durin' her time with them.

For awhile, I thought it might have been the Founders' "default" settin', but then they introduced Laas....
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Old June 2 2014, 10:55 AM   #10
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Re: question about "Heart of stone"(spoiler inside)

The Female Founder kept the appearance in her interactions because that's how she was recognized. With a species as paranoid as the Cardassians, it was probably best to maintain that look durin' her time with them.
The other possibility is that the FF kept her "Odo face" because she constantly interacted with Odo, and Odo was the only thing in the Alpha Quadrant that held any significance to her. Yet when she was forced to depart the station, she could already have been in the throes of the disease that kept her from changing her shape... Or at least affected badly enough that the only things she could plausibly imitate were crude sketches like Odo, and she didn't want to reveal her disability so she pretended to stick to the Odo face for her usual, secretive reasons.

Indeed, it seems likely that she infected Odo in unprotected linking during the second Cardassian occupation of the station, after Typhoid Odo had already been cured of the disease, ironically thanks to the de-Changelingization punishment imposed upon him by the link! Her disease would thus have been much further along than Odo's.

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Old June 4 2014, 10:16 AM   #11
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Re: question about "Heart of stone"(spoiler inside)

I just presume that the smoothed-out look is easier for them, so if they need to take humanoid form that's basically how they look unless they're deliberately imitating someone or just plain want to look some other way. Odo, of course, hasn't reached the stage of knowing *how* to do better yet.

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Indeed, it seems likely that she infected Odo in unprotected linking during the second Cardassian occupation of the station, after Typhoid Odo had already been cured of the disease, ironically thanks to the de-Changelingization punishment imposed upon him by the link! Her disease would thus have been much further along than Odo's.
He was never not a Changeling - the Founders just mentally blocked him from reverting to goo (a reflex he didn't know how to block himself, yet).
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Old June 4 2014, 12:48 PM   #12
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Re: question about "Heart of stone"(spoiler inside)

...But the Founders also gave him e.g. a human digestive system, something he had never had and wasn't capable of producing himself.

In all practical aspects, Odo did become biologically human. And it's easy to believe that he became so human that the S31 disease no longer could exist inside him, which is why he was spared from its effects for so long.

Mind you, it's a known and extremely intriguing aspect of adult, trained Founders that they can become truly indistinguishable from lifeform X or even inanimate object Y. Shouldn't they also lose the ability to shapeshift when becoming convincing seagulls or rocks? Somehow, the essence of Changelingness resides somewhere outside these seagulls or rocks (which isn't surprising, because even a major part of Changeling physical mass has to reside somewhere else when it becomes seagull, or it would be way too heavy to fly). But being stuck in a specific form may not merely put the S31 bioweapon on "hold" - it may purge the weapon from the system altogether, as Odo's reprieve from the disease was longer than the time he spent stuck in human(oid) form, compared with how the Female Founder suffered.

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