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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old February 27 2014, 07:57 PM   #31
Captrek
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Re: Does Kirk Contribute to the Transporter Accident in TMP?

You know where Nicholas Meyer blows most other directors out of the water?

Commentary tracks. Even if you're not normally a fan of commentary tracks, check out Meyer's on the TWOK and TUC BDs.
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Old February 27 2014, 07:59 PM   #32
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Re: Does Kirk Contribute to the Transporter Accident in TMP?

In TOS Kirk's son hadn't been murdered by Klingons.
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Old February 27 2014, 08:06 PM   #33
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Re: Does Kirk Contribute to the Transporter Accident in TMP?

^That's a crutch. I think Kirk would have been more torn up by, say, Ensign Garrovick's death than he would David's (something they did in the novels as a throwaway during that one idiot's reign, which pissed me off more than just about anything else in any novel), because he doesn't know this kid from Adam and David doesn't really show him a whole helluva lot in the time they have.

You can hang any particular kind of character change around these family conventions (Spock's half-brother is a perfect example), but that doesn't make them any more legitimate to me. In TOS, it's the family you choose to be with that usually trumps the sperm family, anyway. Band o' Bros & Sis', y'know?
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Old February 27 2014, 08:30 PM   #34
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Re: Does Kirk Contribute to the Transporter Accident in TMP?

trevanian, do you have children?
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Old February 27 2014, 09:06 PM   #35
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Re: Does Kirk Contribute to the Transporter Accident in TMP?

Really. If anything I'd say the loss of a child you had just begun to build bridges with might be even more devastating than the loss of one you'd known your entire life.

Hell, if you don't think Kirk's devastated by David's death, I recommend rewatching the scene in TSFS. One of Shatner's better performances IMO.
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Old February 27 2014, 09:09 PM   #36
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Re: Does Kirk Contribute to the Transporter Accident in TMP?

Captrek wrote: View Post
It never occurred to me that Kirk's presence in Engineering contributed to the accident.

I have always felt that there's something that Kirk did to contribute to the accident, but it may have been necessary. Sonak and Scotty and both told him that the Enterprise could not be ready in less than 20 hours, and he ordered that the 20-hour job be completed in 12 hours no matter what it took. When you force people to take shortcuts, accidents will happen.

The wormhole was also Kirk's fault, in the same sense. It's debatable whether Kirk was right or wrong to push so hard, but that pushing contributed to the wormhole and possibly to the transporter accident.
Looked at that way, it's Vejur's fault. A ship had to investigate and try to stop it before it reached Earth. The Enterprise was the the only ship that could. Ready or not, she HAD to launch in twelve hours.
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Old February 27 2014, 09:19 PM   #37
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Re: Does Kirk Contribute to the Transporter Accident in TMP?

Which means it's actually NASA's fault for dispatching Voyager 6 in the first place...
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Old February 27 2014, 09:29 PM   #38
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Re: Does Kirk Contribute to the Transporter Accident in TMP?

Which means it's actually Dwight Eisenhower's fault for establishing NASA...

Which means it's actually Kirk's fault for letting Edith Keeler die...
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Old February 27 2014, 09:31 PM   #39
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Re: Does Kirk Contribute to the Transporter Accident in TMP?

Captrek wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
pfontaine2 wrote: View Post
Finally, I would have also loved to see McCoy acknowledge that Rand is in the transporter room instead of just waking about complaining about engineers. He probably hasn't seen her in years!
Very good observation!

If there is one major issue I'm having with TMP it's that our protagonists act rather like automatons than living human beings.

Bob
Yes, it has been years.





Maybe he doesn't recognize her.
Well, assuming she was only around for 6 months in year 2 of the 5 year mission, it would have been 6 years. Plus they didn't put soft-glow on the transporter booth perspex.

I wish they'd done more to underscore that Janice was back. Maybe a little scene like her cameo in STIII with her and Kirk or something. I was happy with DiFalco, and I understand that Shatner was probably keen to get his wife in the movie, but giving Janice another scene would have been better IMO.

I'll admit, I'm a fan and I didn't even realise it was her until my second viewing (albeit I was only about 10 when I saw it).
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Old February 27 2014, 10:21 PM   #40
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Re: Does Kirk Contribute to the Transporter Accident in TMP?

Captrek wrote: View Post
Which means it's actually Dwight Eisenhower's fault for establishing NASA...

Which means it's actually Kirk's fault for letting Edith Keeler die...
It was Kirk's fault, and it will be again...that's the beauty of it!
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Old February 27 2014, 10:44 PM   #41
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Re: Does Kirk Contribute to the Transporter Accident in TMP?

Captrek wrote: View Post
You know where Nicholas Meyer blows most other directors out of the water?

Commentary tracks. Even if you're not normally a fan of commentary tracks, check out Meyer's on the TWOK and TUC BDs.
His commentary track on the TWOK DVD was great. The one he did with the late Denny Martin Flinn for TUC was not.
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Old February 27 2014, 10:45 PM   #42
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Re: Does Kirk Contribute to the Transporter Accident in TMP?

DonIago wrote: View Post
Really. If anything I'd say the loss of a child you had just begun to build bridges with might be even more devastating than the loss of one you'd known your entire life.

Hell, if you don't think Kirk's devastated by David's death, I recommend rewatching the scene in TSFS. One of Shatner's better performances IMO.
I usually limit my viewings on SFS because I dislike so much about it, which is a shame because it starts off pretty well. I find Shatner's response to David's death to be a low point in the series, down there with Stewart's, "the line must be snorted HERE!" in FC and his bawling in SAREK. Compare any of those with Shatner's response to Edith Keeler's death or even his humbled/subdued end scene in REQUIEM ("an old and lonely man and a young and lonely man - we put on a pretty poor show, didn't we?") and ... well, there is no comparison.

The SFS scene is horrendously staged for one; if Kirk is going to fall, it should be after SEEING David killed, via one of those convenient 'shows everything' main viewscreen visuals, instead of getting the news as a phone call. You could have racked focus off screen,staying on Kirk's back, and seen him slip down out of frame, diminished by what he had seen. Unless you're really really good, it's often best to be shooting an emotional reaction obliquely, because otherwise it can just read like making faces, something Shatner often is accused of anyway. Now if you're Mandy Patimkin in CHICAGO HOPE and reacting to an attorney-friend who has just died on your operating table, you CAN pull it off, but that is more the exception to the rule.

I'm not picking on Shatner at all; his work in the scene with Morrow in the lounge is excellent, as is his early scene with Bones in Spock's quarters, but I think Nimoy made a lot of mistakes, many of which compounded Bennett's, and the result is for me the definitive TOS feature misfire, the most squandered of opportunities.

In answer to the other question, I do not have children, nor have I ever wanted any (if I were well-off I would certainly have adopted, as there are more than enough children in the world needing parents, but I'm not & that's that; even if there weren't a surplus of children in such a jam, I haven't ever felt the need to help conceive one that would likely be color-blind, nearsighted & diabetic.)

I have no contact with any family members (not counting my wife, as that is a choice, not something that happened as a result of nature), as none of them are sufficiently well-behaved or possessing enough integrity to merit my concern. I DO have a few friends (many have fallen by the wayside because they didn't live up to the standards I maintain for friendship, and in one instance where I feel I didn't measure up) who I would risk job and/or life for, because THEY are my family.

Yeah, I absolutely LOVE tff.
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Old February 27 2014, 10:53 PM   #43
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Re: Does Kirk Contribute to the Transporter Accident in TMP?

Yeah, I absolutely LOVE tff.
And still you find it difficult to believe that other people may have emotional responses that don't resemble your own?
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Old February 27 2014, 11:51 PM   #44
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Re: Does Kirk Contribute to the Transporter Accident in TMP?

I'm not responsible for the opinions of others; I'm putting forward a reasoned explanation for the obvious failings I see in something being talked up as some kind of pinnacle. I make no excuses for what fails in TFF (of which there is plenty); however the emotional KSM core of the thing is as solid as anything in FeatureTrek, and it keeps me coming back, no matter how many decks are in the ship or how feeble the Sybok angle is.
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Old February 28 2014, 12:13 AM   #45
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Re: Does Kirk Contribute to the Transporter Accident in TMP?

trevanian wrote: View Post
I'm not responsible for the opinions of others
I'm not holding you responsible for the opinions of other. I'm observing that you basically argued that Kirk's reaction to Kirk's death is implausible because you would be more torn up by the death of a coworker than by the death of the biological child you never wanted and don't have. But...
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