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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old February 16 2014, 08:28 PM   #46
Cyke101
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Re: If they had any balls...

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
TheWelshPirate wrote: View Post
Heaven forbid a Star Trek movie involve some form of exploration.
Actually, the opening scene of STID is the first and only time we've see the crew of any Enterprise doing any exploring in a Star Trek movie. Seriously, the only exploring done in the TOS movies was by the Reliant in TWOK, the Grissom in TSFS and the Excelsior in TUC. No exploration at all in the TNG ones.
Hmmm. What about Sha Ka Ree in STV?
Though we do get that one scene where everyone's staring in awe once they break the barrier, it's more like the crew was coerced into going there. They didn't boldly go under their own agency.

What about the interior of V'Ger in TMP?
Same as above, it wasn't really their idea. Besides, with V'Ger coming to Earth, it'd be like the Americas coming to Christopher Columbus.
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Old February 16 2014, 08:59 PM   #47
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Re: If they had any balls...

Cinema Geekly wrote: View Post
I can't even imagine the fan backlash.

You think the nerd rage is bad now about perceived rehashes of TWOK, and other such nonsense?

Just imagine if Captain Kirk was a Woman, and Spock is in a relationship with a Hispanic Doctor McCoy.
Er, whaaaa? How does "reboot" equate with gender swaping? I don't remember Batman being turned in to a woman in Batman Begins. Talk about a straw man argument.
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Old February 16 2014, 09:06 PM   #48
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Re: If they had any balls...

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post

Actually, the opening scene of STID is the first and only time we've see the crew of any Enterprise doing any exploring in a Star Trek movie. Seriously, the only exploring done in the TOS movies was by the Reliant in TWOK, the Grissom in TSFS and the Excelsior in TUC. No exploration at all in the TNG ones.
Hmmm. What about Sha Ka Ree in STV?
Though we do get that one scene where everyone's staring in awe once they break the barrier, it's more like the crew was coerced into going there. They didn't boldly go under their own agency.

What about the interior of V'Ger in TMP?
Same as above, it wasn't really their idea. Besides, with V'Ger coming to Earth, it'd be like the Americas coming to Christopher Columbus.
Yeah, after the original assertion was implicitly clarified, I can see the point.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
If you'd said that "doing any exploring" wasn't how you meant to put it, because instead you meant that they never went on a mission just for the purpose of exploring, you might find people going, "Oh, OK, yeah, I see what you mean."
Nevertheless, strange new worlds still managed to get visited in both TOS and TNG films, so it's not like there's a lot of substance to the point.
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Old February 16 2014, 10:29 PM   #49
The Wormhole
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Re: If they had any balls...

I am not Spock wrote: View Post
Wasn't the Enterprise E at the beginning of First Contact assigned to a routine survey mission along the Neutral Zone?
Border patrol, actually. Officially to keep an eye on the Romulans and make sure they didn't take advantage of the Borg attack, but really to keep Picard out of the way because Starfleet didn't trust him.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Nevertheless, strange new worlds still managed to get visited in both TOS and TNG films, so it's not like there's a lot of substance to the point.
Not very often though. Assuming we just mean new to the characters (as new to the audience would mean every planet in every movie) than in TOS that leaves Genesis, which literally was a new planet and Sha Ka Ree, which of course the Enterprise was hijacked when it went there. In the TNG movies there's Veridian III, though the Enterprise went there specifically to stop Soran, not to explore. The Ba'ku homeworld, though that was the Admiral's team studying that planet, not the Enterprise. And even then, they had an ulterior motive and the Enterprise only got involved because Data discovered that and went wacko. Then there's the planet B-4's body parts were scattered around in Nemesis, but the reason for checking that out was to check out the positronic readings B-4 was emitting, and that was part of Shinzon's master plan to lure the Enterprise near the Neutral Zone so that they would be the only ship in range when he requested a Federation ship be sent to Romulus. In other words, not exploring.
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Old February 18 2014, 01:02 AM   #50
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Re: If they had any balls...

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Then there's the planet B-4's body parts were scattered around in Nemesis, but the reason for checking that out was to check out the positronic readings B-4 was emitting, and that was part of Shinzon's master plan to lure the Enterprise near the Neutral Zone so that they would be the only ship in range when he requested a Federation ship be sent to Romulus.
Which is reason #587 of why Nemesis makes no sense: Why would Shinzon assume that Janeway would order the Enterprise to Romulus just because it was the closest ship? Wouldn't it have made more sense for Shinzon to have just asked for the Enterprise specifically?

(Yeah, I know I'm off-topic here )
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Old February 18 2014, 01:10 AM   #51
CorporalCaptain
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Re: If they had any balls...

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Nevertheless, strange new worlds still managed to get visited in both TOS and TNG films, so it's not like there's a lot of substance to the point.
Not very often though.
How often were strange new worlds actually visited during the series, especially under the narrow parameters you're asking about? We can scratch off visits to colonies, starbases, times when they went back to planets to repair contamination from earlier starships, ship-board bottle episodes, times when they go to a planet to rescue crash survivors, times when they're kidnapped by aliens and put in puzzle-boxes. That eliminates most episodes of TOS right there.
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Old February 18 2014, 03:35 AM   #52
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Re: If they had any balls...

We didn't really see a lot of exploring in general, even on the Trek TV shows. Often the ship is on a mercy mission, or trading mission, or something of the kind. Ironically, Voyager features quite a bit of exploration. Even though they're supposed to be on their way home
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Old February 18 2014, 04:26 AM   #53
The Wormhole
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Re: If they had any balls...

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Which is reason #587 of why Nemesis makes no sense: Why would Shinzon assume that Janeway would order the Enterprise to Romulus just because it was the closest ship? Wouldn't it have made more sense for Shinzon to have just asked for the Enterprise specifically?
Well, Starfleet does tend to send the closest ship in range, and there's usually only one ship per sector. Manipulate the Enterprise so that it's the only ship in range when he makes his invitation makes Shinzon look more like he has a master plan. You'd lose that if he just asked Janeway to send the Enterprise.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Nevertheless, strange new worlds still managed to get visited in both TOS and TNG films, so it's not like there's a lot of substance to the point.
Not very often though.
How often were strange new worlds actually visited during the series, especially under the narrow parameters you're asking about? We can scratch off visits to colonies, starbases, times when they went back to planets to repair contamination from earlier starships, ship-board bottle episodes, times when they go to a planet to rescue crash survivors, times when they're kidnapped by aliens and put in puzzle-boxes. That eliminates most episodes of TOS right there.
Yes, exactly. Despite the party line that Star Trek is supposedly all about exploration, very little exploring gets done in the franchise. TOS and TNG despite having exploring in their opening monologues were largely about the ships fulfilling Starfleet assigned objectives of the week. DS9 was about life and drama aboard a space station, and Voyager was a quest to return home. Enterprise was the only series specifically about exploration, and even that got revised in the third season.
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Old February 18 2014, 04:46 AM   #54
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Re: If they had any balls...

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Manipulate the Enterprise so that it's the only ship in range when he makes his invitation makes Shinzon look more like he has a master plan. You'd lose that if he just asked Janeway to send the Enterprise.
But if he specifically asked for the Enterprise, that would put the question in both Picard's and the audience's heads? Why? Which of course would be because he's Picard's clone. A nice bit of foreshadowing that was completely lost on the writer.

And don't even get me started on Shinzon's "master plan"...
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Old February 18 2014, 06:31 PM   #55
The Wormhole
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Re: If they had any balls...

Dukhat wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Manipulate the Enterprise so that it's the only ship in range when he makes his invitation makes Shinzon look more like he has a master plan. You'd lose that if he just asked Janeway to send the Enterprise.
But if he specifically asked for the Enterprise, that would put the question in both Picard's and the audience's heads? Why? Which of course would be because he's Picard's clone. A nice bit of foreshadowing that was completely lost on the writer.

And don't even get me started on Shinzon's "master plan"...
Actually, I doubt specifically asking for the Enterprise would really cause anyone to get suspicious or anything. After all, one would probably be more surprised if the new Romulan Praetor didn't request the Federation's flagship commanded by Starfleet's living legend.
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Old February 18 2014, 06:45 PM   #56
Dukhat
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Re: If they had any balls...

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Actually, I doubt specifically asking for the Enterprise would really cause anyone to get suspicious or anything. After all, one would probably be more surprised if the new Romulan Praetor didn't request the Federation's flagship commanded by Starfleet's living legend.
Really? You don't think Starfleet would be even a tad suspicious that the new guy in charge of Romulus just after a volatile situation like a military coup wants the Federation's most advanced starship and one of its most important commanders? What if it was all a ruse and Shinzon just wanted to kidnap Picard and torture him for military secrets, and steal the Enterprise to plunder its technology? Wouldn't it make more sense to send an older ship with a less important commander?
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Old February 18 2014, 06:52 PM   #57
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Re: If they had any balls...

Dukhat wrote: View Post

What if it was all a ruse and Shinzon just wanted to kidnap Picard and torture him for military secrets, and steal the Enterprise to plunder its technology? Wouldn't it make more sense to send an older ship with a less important commander?
Plunder its technology?

The Scimitar gave the Ent-E the beating of its life, it would be a good wake up call for starfleet.

Atleast the JJ verse starfleet responded to superior threats and built the Vengeance.
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Old February 18 2014, 06:54 PM   #58
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Re: If they had any balls...

Dukhat wrote: View Post
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Actually, I doubt specifically asking for the Enterprise would really cause anyone to get suspicious or anything. After all, one would probably be more surprised if the new Romulan Praetor didn't request the Federation's flagship commanded by Starfleet's living legend.
Really? You don't think Starfleet would be even a tad suspicious that the new guy in charge of Romulus just after a volatile situation like a military coup wants the Federation's most advanced starship and one of its most important commanders? What if it was all a ruse and Shinzon just wanted to kidnap Picard and torture him for military secrets, and steal the Enterprise to plunder its technology? Wouldn't it make more sense to send an older ship with a less important commander?
Actually, that was kind of what I was going for, one would expect for a variety of reasons the new Praetor wanting the Enterprise. When Janeway or Picard first hear that request it wouldn't really set off too many alarms for them. "Oh yes, he wants our most high-profile ship and crew, either for hero worship to take out his largest thread from us" instead of "he wants the Enterprise? What the hell for? What makes us so special?"

I guess the question then becomes why would Starfleet agree to send the Enterprise, though that can easily be explained as willing to humour the new foreign leader who is making diplomatic overtures and if things do go south, the Enterprise is a powerful enough ship, Picard an experienced enough captain with a competent enough crew to handle whatever comes up. Besides, last time Starfleet kept the Enterprise out of battle was against the Borg, and Picard showed up anyway and ended the battle within five minutes. If I were a Starfleet admiral, I would feel more comfortable knowing here were out there than a less important commander.
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Old February 18 2014, 08:21 PM   #59
Dukhat
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Re: If they had any balls...

anh165 wrote: View Post
Plunder its technology?

The Scimitar gave the Ent-E the beating of its life, it would be a good wake up call for starfleet.
I wasn't speculating about what Shinzon had, I was just speculating as to why Starfleet would have sent the Enterprise-E.

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Actually, that was kind of what I was going for, one would expect for a variety of reasons the new Praetor wanting the Enterprise. When Janeway or Picard first hear that request it wouldn't really set off too many alarms for them. "Oh yes, he wants our most high-profile ship and crew, either for hero worship to take out his largest thread from us" instead of "he wants the Enterprise? What the hell for? What makes us so special?"
Where I was going with my point was not so much the Enterprise herself, but Shinzon wanting Picard, personally, by name. As you state, it would at least make Picard wonder why someone who is a complete stranger to him would want him personally, which we would then find out once Shinzon was revealed. Hell, Shinzon could have just asked for Picard to come to Romulus by himself, without the Enterprise. That would have made a hell of a lot more sense.

The way the film portrayed it, Janeway simply randomly chooses the Enterprise, even though it is the "closest ship" thanks to them having to find B4. But Shinzon was putting an awful lot of faith that Starfleet would still send the Enterprise despite this, instead of simply asking for her specifically.
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Old February 18 2014, 08:49 PM   #60
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Re: If they had any balls...

Shinzon is simply genre-savvy. He watched the show and saw that the Enterprise is ALWAYS the only ship that's close to the plot-relevant action.
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