RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,777
Posts: 5,434,415
Members: 24,840
Currently online: 466
Newest member: Reece101

TrekToday headlines

Trek Comics Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23

German Volkswagen Campaign Features Trek Actors
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23

Shatner And Nimoy In Trek 3?
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23

The Art of John Alvin Book Review
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23

Episode Four of The Red Shirt Diaries
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Star Trek: The Compendium Review
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Orci Drops Rangers Project
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Retro Review: Image in the Sand
By: Michelle on Sep 20

Star Trek: Shadows Of Tyranny Casting Call
By: T'Bonz on Sep 19

USS Vengeance And More Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 19


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 18 2014, 06:14 PM   #61
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Vandervecken wrote: View Post

I don't see how the PD applies at all in The Apple, since the Enterprise was under direct attack from Vaal.
Depends on the episode. "The Omega Glory" says explicitly that the safety of the ship is not sufficient reason to violate the Prime Directive, but many other eps don't take it to that extreme.

Remember, they were making this up as they went along.
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 18 2014, 06:23 PM   #62
Vandervecken
Commander
 
Vandervecken's Avatar
 
Location: Kobold
Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Clearly Kirk doesn't think that the PD applies to societies ruled by super-computers. See also: Return of the Archons, Spock's Brain, For the World is Hollow, etc.

Maybe there's an anti-AI footnote buried in the PD somewhere, known as Kirk Amendment?
Yes, the "Prime Directive only applies to growing, developing cultures" argument, invoked explicitly here and in Archons. In "For the World Is Hollow..." the threat posed by Yonada's collision course with a populated Federation world is all the justification Kirk needs, iirc.



I never thought that a captain was required to let his ship and crew be sacrificed for the sake of the Prime Directive. In fact I assumed that protecting one's ship would be justifiable reasons for VIOLATING it.

And the PD clearly doesn't apply here, for Strudel's point is accurate. Vaal's rule over those people is obviously unnatural and artificial, and the PD is not meant to protect things like that. The PD is meant to protect the natural development of civilizations, and Vaal's very existence prevents such development.
I agree with your first point. And in that instance (preserving a federation ship and/or the lives of federation citizens), it's not a violation at all. The PD simply does not apply in save-the-ship instances, or save-the-planet instances as in "For the World Is Hollow..."

But I don't agree with the general consensus I'm reading here that the PD applies only to "growing" or "natural" civilizations/cultures. The whole point of the PD is that these are ALIEN civilizations and we, as a race/culture/civilization alien to them, can't really make value judgments along the lines of "you need to change because of X." I'd say Spock had it right when he pointed out that this (Gamma Trianguli 6) was a viable culture. It's far more likely that the generally regulation-adhering Mr. Spock was hewing closer to the PD's intent than Kirk ever would. IMO, Kirk was making that judgment up in "Return of the Archons" to suit himself, not quoting or paraphrasing from any codicil of the PD. The events of "Return of the Archons" that occurred after O'Neil had been recovered were, to me, a flagrant PD violation.

What all that intra-episode talk about the PD simply glossed over was that the PD didn't apply anyway; whatever they did, they had to stop Vaal from destroying the Enterprise, and realistically that meant destroying Vaal.

Now, do I really care? Nope. I enjoy watching Kirk-the-computer/machine-destroyer work his particular form of artistry as much as the next Trekker.
__________________
"Mu hah hah ha! And when they give me Battlestar Galactica that'll be the trifecta! My red matter and action movie scripts are unstoppable!"--JJ "Destroyer of Worlds" Abrams
Vandervecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 18 2014, 06:25 PM   #63
Vandervecken
Commander
 
Vandervecken's Avatar
 
Location: Kobold
Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Vandervecken wrote: View Post

I don't see how the PD applies at all in The Apple, since the Enterprise was under direct attack from Vaal.
Depends on the episode. "The Omega Glory" says explicitly that the safety of the ship is not sufficient reason to violate the Prime Directive, but many other eps don't take it to that extreme.

Remember, they were making this up as they went along.
Well, as you say, I think The Omega Glory was before they'd really thought it through.
__________________
"Mu hah hah ha! And when they give me Battlestar Galactica that'll be the trifecta! My red matter and action movie scripts are unstoppable!"--JJ "Destroyer of Worlds" Abrams
Vandervecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 18 2014, 06:37 PM   #64
Vandervecken
Commander
 
Vandervecken's Avatar
 
Location: Kobold
Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
One minor quibble with the OP: this was a Prime Directive situation, regardless of the danger posed to the ship and landing party. It was established--I think in "The Omega Glory" (another shitty episode; seriously. I've loathed it and "The Apple" both since I was a child)--that a starship captain was required to sacrifice his life and the life of his crew if saving them meant violating it.

On another note, did anyone else catch that this is the only time we see a landing beam down in shifts, solely for the plot-driven reason that there needed to be a very high red shirt body count?
But they never do, and no one is ever called to account for not sacrificing their ship and/or world to avoid contaminating another world.

Look at it this way: if we take this reasoning to its conclusion, then Starfleet would have no right to protect itself from, say, the Borg, because when the Borg assimilate, they are specifically plying not just any characteristic, but one of the defining characteristics of their culture. Who are we to deny them the fulfillment of their culture, by resisting being assimilated?

For that matter, the Klingons might have made the same argument, saying they're a warrior-expansionist culture and how dare we try to stop them from conquering? PD violation!

If a federation ship with over 400 hands is in danger of being destroyed, that's a military situation, even if writ small compared to interstellar war, and the PD does not apply.
__________________
"Mu hah hah ha! And when they give me Battlestar Galactica that'll be the trifecta! My red matter and action movie scripts are unstoppable!"--JJ "Destroyer of Worlds" Abrams
Vandervecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19 2014, 07:54 AM   #65
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
It would've been more interesting, to me, at least, if Vaal didn't use explosive rocks, but regular vegetation as fuel. Especially if they'd been able to get inside, at all, or at least hear Spock theorize on how it might've worked. What a shame that little misunderstanding had to be cleared up. I liked it better the "other" way, better ...
But that way makes no sense. There's not enough potential energy in baskets of fruit to do what Vaal is shown to do. Some kind of high-energy yielding material like the rocks (assume it's something like uranium or something) to do what the story requires.

Push The Button wrote: View Post
Poor Spock really takes a beating in this episode.
"Poor Spock" has it a infinitely better than the record number of redshirts nailed in this episode!


Vandervecken wrote: View Post
Look at it this way: if we take this reasoning to its conclusion, then Starfleet would have no right to protect itself from, say, the Borg, because when the Borg assimilate...
Which would be the case if that's how it was applied, but in original Star Trek it was only used in reference to non-spacegoing cultures. Once they're out their in space they're going to meet other cultures on their own and that's going to have an impact, so at that point they are "peers". But before that the idea is that WE don't go mess with them and change the "natural" development of their culture. That TNG turned in into crazy "we can save them without them knowing, but we won't" is not germane to Star Trek unless you want to retcon it,
__________________
* * *
"If you wanted to get a good meeting... just go in and
say 'darker, grittier, sexier' and whatever."
—Glen Larson, 2010
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19 2014, 12:23 PM   #66
Vandervecken
Commander
 
Vandervecken's Avatar
 
Location: Kobold
Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Maurice wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
It would've been more interesting, to me, at least, if Vaal didn't use explosive rocks, but regular vegetation as fuel. Especially if they'd been able to get inside, at all, or at least hear Spock theorize on how it might've worked. What a shame that little misunderstanding had to be cleared up. I liked it better the "other" way, better ...
But that way makes no sense. There's not enough potential energy in baskets of fruit to do what Vaal is shown to do. Some kind of high-energy yielding material like the rocks (assume it's something like uranium or something) to do what the story requires.

Push The Button wrote: View Post
Poor Spock really takes a beating in this episode.
"Poor Spock" has it a infinitely better than the record number of redshirts nailed in this episode!


Vandervecken wrote: View Post
Look at it this way: if we take this reasoning to its conclusion, then Starfleet would have no right to protect itself from, say, the Borg, because when the Borg assimilate...
Which would be the case if that's how it was applied, but in original Star Trek it was only used in reference to non-spacegoing cultures. Once they're out their in space they're going to meet other cultures on their own and that's going to have an impact, so at that point they are "peers". But before that the idea is that WE don't go mess with them and change the "natural" development of their culture. That TNG turned in into crazy "we can save them without them knowing, but we won't" is not germane to Star Trek unless you want to retcon it,
So you're saying that if a civilization isn't spacegoing, it can exercise as much military force as it wants against any federation vessel with impunity? And always have their actions at least be legally protected by the PD?

I think at this point, the weapon or method of attack is separated from the "civilization." Vaal IS the weapon, not the entirety of the civilization, people of some sort are required in this instance.

I can't conceive of Starfleet ever giving a captaincy to a single officer they believed would say (or when they said) "sure, I'll sacrifice my ship if it comes under attack, for the sake of the PD!"

Also, the builders of Vaal probably WERE spacegoing.

I'm just saying you can't put a big, spaceship-threatening gun on a planet, shoot at passing ships, and hide behind the PD, whether you have spacegoing capabilities or not. It might even be that technically, as read, the PD says yes you can. But in the real world of enforcement, it doesn't happen. The Feds aren't suicidal, or we wouldn't have Section 31 or the majority of Starfleet captains who place their ships and crews first, last, and always.

As for that retcon, I'm not sure of the point you're making--it doesn't obviate mine which is that once genuinely threatening military force is in play, spacegoing or not, the PD takes a back seat to self- and ship preservation. But I sure won't defend that retcon. I'm just not sure what you mean by the "we won't" part. If they (Starfleet) don't actually do anything, then there's no PD violation, for all the chin music. What episodes are you thinking of in TNG?
__________________
"Mu hah hah ha! And when they give me Battlestar Galactica that'll be the trifecta! My red matter and action movie scripts are unstoppable!"--JJ "Destroyer of Worlds" Abrams

Last edited by Vandervecken; February 19 2014 at 02:58 PM.
Vandervecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19 2014, 01:21 PM   #67
2takesfrakes
Commodore
 
2takesfrakes's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Maurice wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
It would've been more interesting, to me, at least, if Vaal didn't use explosive rocks, but regular vegetation as fuel.
But that way makes no sense. There's not enough potential energy in baskets of fruit to do what Vaal is shown to do. Some kind of high-energy yielding material like the rocks (assume it's something like uranium or something) to do what the story requires.
Well ... as Vaal isn't a vegetarian, after all, it's all a moot point, really. I wasn't concerned about the science of it. I certainly wasn't prepared to give it this much thought, but if Vaal had run on veggies, they could've been fermented into a biofuel of some sort. But the whole planet of sweet, innocent, white-haired Humans in carnaval paint is so charming to begin with, I was perfectly willing to accept veggetarian Vaal, regardless.

It just seemed like something these people would do - literally feed Vaal with food, like what they ate - so in "commune" would they feel with their "living" lord and master. I don't require STAR TREK to be scientifically accurate with its storylines, especially when not doing so adds to the charm, or "alien" aspects, frankly, to the proceedings. But, Vaal does eat rocks, so ... whatcha gonna do, I guess.
2takesfrakes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19 2014, 02:23 PM   #68
Mytran
Fleet Captain
 
Mytran's Avatar
 
Location: North Wales
Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Many years ago (long before the truth about the rocks became clear) I assumed that the "food" being offered to Vaal was simply that - an offering by the villagers to their god. Vaal's true power source was obviously greater and had to come from somewhere else.
Mytran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20 2014, 02:22 AM   #69
2takesfrakes
Commodore
 
2takesfrakes's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Now, see ... that works. I like that idea, alot. Considering that the ENTERPRISE shot phasers to kill it, anyway, it didn't really matter how Vaal was "fueled" up. Having the natives bringing token tributes only adds to their perceived innocence, in my view. But hey, if exploding rocks gets Vaal's motor hummin' ... at least the HARD SCIENCE is in play!
2takesfrakes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20 2014, 02:07 PM   #70
Vandervecken
Commander
 
Vandervecken's Avatar
 
Location: Kobold
Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

And here's another potential weapon just waiting to be reverse engineered by some enterprising Romulan, Ferengi, Breen, what have you. Not the tractor beam, that's standard tech for many known species--whatever was like "a pail of cold water on a fire," as Scotty put it, to the antimatter pods.

Since Starfleet ships are antimatter-core propelled, this would be an incredible weapon to turn on the Feds. Put it on a ship, behind better shields than Vaal had, and your Starfleet opponent is dead in the water, so to speak. The Romulans, though, singularity powered, presumably would have nothing to worry about. Although for all we know Vaal's energy-quenching device would have worked on their systems as well.

Just sayin'.
__________________
"Mu hah hah ha! And when they give me Battlestar Galactica that'll be the trifecta! My red matter and action movie scripts are unstoppable!"--JJ "Destroyer of Worlds" Abrams
Vandervecken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20 2014, 03:31 PM   #71
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Mytran wrote: View Post
Many years ago (long before the truth about the rocks became clear) I assumed that the "food" being offered to Vaal was simply that - an offering by the villagers to their god. Vaal's true power source was obviously greater and had to come from somewhere else.
You know, I flirted with the idea that the "feeding" business was just a ritual intended to give the Vaalians' lives some structure, but the episode does suggest that Vaal is weakened somehow when Kirk stops the natives from feeding him . . . .

But, yeah, the latter notion would have made more sense.
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21 2014, 12:55 AM   #72
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Its very clear that the Enterprise straining against Vaal's influence taps its power reserves, which is why it demands dinner, and why Kirk stops the natives, since a weakened Vaal is less likely to survive a phaser bombardment.
__________________
* * *
"If you wanted to get a good meeting... just go in and
say 'darker, grittier, sexier' and whatever."
—Glen Larson, 2010
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21 2014, 02:02 AM   #73
CommishSleer
Fleet Captain
 
CommishSleer's Avatar
 
Location: At the After Party Still...
View CommishSleer's Twitter Profile
Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

The idea that Vaal is weakened because his followers aren't demonstrating their devotion is sort of a romantic idea. That a god is weakened without worshipers.

The reality that Vaal is actually being fueled by his followers in a symbiotic relationship is a little less appealing to me but more realistic. Of course then comes the question of why have this clumsy set-up in the first place. If I were Vaal I would have heaps of reserves for the proverbial rainy day.
CommishSleer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2014, 12:21 AM   #74
Dennis
The Man
 
Dennis's Avatar
 
Location: Starbucks country
Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

I don't know how anyone gets past the utter nonsense of the premise: a computer so powerful that it can actually control and direct planetary weather from moment to moment which is completely dependent for its power supply upon being fed some fresh fruit every few days.
__________________
"I don’t think there is any place in the world where [the Ford Mustang] is not known. To build it right here in Michigan is something to be proud of." - UAW Vice President Jimmy Settles

Dennis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2014, 12:38 AM   #75
CorporalCaptain
Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Fridge horror for The Apple

Dennis wrote: View Post
I don't know how anyone gets past the utter nonsense of the premise: a computer so powerful that it can actually control and direct planetary weather from moment to moment which is completely dependent for its power supply upon being fed some fresh fruit every few days.
I believe they were feeding it the explosive rocks, but otherwise, yeah, totally.

Plus, the episode suffers from what I think of as "small planet syndrome": everything relevant to the entire planet takes place around the one beam-down site.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:14 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.