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Old March 25 2014, 07:26 AM   #316
Rhubarbodendron
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Re: list of boyfriend rules

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with a "nice" guy, all you know is what he's presenting, not necessarily what's underneath it. Is he being nice to you just for sex or because he genuinely wants to get to know you and treat you respectfully without any expectation of something more than friendship? What really matters is whether he's a good one, and that has little to do with whether he's particularly "nice."
I use to watch how people treat their staff/underlings. For example how they treat a waiter, a shop clerk or a cleaner. Quite regularly a "nice guy" will accidentially drop his mask and show his real face.
Someone, on the other hand, who treats his social inferiors gently and with respect can be expected to also be a respectful partner in a relationship.
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Old March 25 2014, 08:12 AM   #317
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Re: list of boyfriend rules

Not viewing them as social inferiors would be the best thing. Or rather if it was clear they did view them like that they could go jump.
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Old March 25 2014, 08:17 AM   #318
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Re: list of boyfriend rules

Yeah, I have no social inferiors. We're all on the same level in that regard.
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Old March 25 2014, 08:25 AM   #319
Rhubarbodendron
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Re: list of boyfriend rules

I couldn't agree more.
Just didn't know how to otherwise express the state of being payed less and having less power and standing. "Esteem-wise challenged"??
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Old March 25 2014, 11:42 AM   #320
{ Emilia }
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Re: list of boyfriend rules

Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
I couldn't agree more.
Just didn't know how to otherwise express the state of being payed less and having less power and standing. "Esteem-wise challenged"??
How about "people working in certain parts of the services sector of the economy"?

I mean... "socially inferior"? "Underlings"? Seriously?

That you even used that term says a lot about you and apparently you think of social capital only as "power and standing".

Last edited by { Emilia }; March 25 2014 at 12:16 PM.
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Old March 25 2014, 12:16 PM   #321
Rhubarbodendron
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Re: list of boyfriend rules

No, Emilia, I don't. Quite the opposite, actually. But it is a fact of life we can't - and must not - ignore, that some people have a higher social rank than others and that sadly this is what counts mostly, in every day life and social interactions. Don't blame me for it: it's what society itself has created. And neither you nor I can't help being part of that society as much as we might dislike it.

I could just as well have said "lower ranking" or "servants" or "lower classes" which all three are commonly accepted but imo somewhat rude phrases. Instead, I attempted to phrase it as politely, politically correct and educatedly as possible. If this my best effort still disn't satisfy you, I'm sorry.


"people working in certain parts of the service sector of the society" is a very good way to paraphrase it. Thank you!! It only does seem a trifle long.


At any rate, apart from the phrasing we see completely eye to eye, don't we? We both loathe men who treat others less fortunate ones with disdain or rudeness.
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Last edited by Rhubarbodendron; March 25 2014 at 12:29 PM.
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Old March 25 2014, 12:23 PM   #322
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Re: list of boyfriend rules

Celebrities and high up politicians have a "higher social rank", because we put them there. Everyone else is equal, or maybe it's just me living in a country that prides itself on egalitarianism. I've never seen or heard anyone viewing a "a waiter, a shop clerk or a cleaner" as lower than them. And when people are shits to waiters and shop clerks it's because they hate delays or they are shitty with the product, NOT because they look down on that person as lesser social rank.

Yes you can tell if a "nice guy" is really not nice if they are shitty towards people in the service industries but it doesn't automatically follow that this has anything to do with social rank. It does read as though you inserted social rank in there when the point could have been made without it, and it makes it sound like you see the world that way yourself.
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Last edited by teacake; March 25 2014 at 12:36 PM.
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Old March 25 2014, 12:40 PM   #323
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Re: list of boyfriend rules

partially, I do. I am not certain if I can explain it properly but I'll try my best. please be patient with me.

I think that we are very far from all being equal. I agree that in theory we ought to be, but in practize there are big differences: a dentist is held in higher esteem than a road sweeper and a teacher is generally more respected than a secretary. A pilot will always think himself superior to a hobo.
On my visits to the US I got the impression that there a person's bank account is the main factor when it comes to social rank / general esteem.
In Europe, it seems to me, it is more dependent on a person's education.

But on both continents, whether we like it or not, there is a difference in how we value people. And this difference in esteem is what I define as social rank. Yes, it is unfair. But people are different and therefore you can't make them all equal. It has been tried and all attempts failed. So I fear we must accept it as a fact of life and try to change it gradually.
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Old March 25 2014, 12:45 PM   #324
{ Emilia }
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Re: list of boyfriend rules

I'm not picking a fight. I just disagree with you.

Rhubarbodendron wrote: View Post
No, Emilia, I don't. Quite the opposite, actually. But it is a fact of life we can't - and must not - ignore, that some people have a higher social rank than others.
No, it's a social construct perpetuated by people like you who think in these terms (while enjoying their privilege). It's not "a fact of life" for all of us. Many of us actually don't consider people working in the service industry as "socially inferior".

Don't blame me for it: it's what society itself has created. And neither you nor I can't help being part of that society
Society changes all the time, you know. It's not a rigid entity that never evolves. And how certain jobs are viewed in societies actually differs a lot between cultures. Just look at the high regard for skilled workers (Facharbeiter) and engineers in Germany compared to what they're viewed as in the US.
The same is true for "class" (people still use that term?) as an evolving, fluid concept. As a social historian I find your simplistic view on society and how it evolves a little nauseating.

I could just as well have said "lower ranking" or "servants" or "lower classes" which all three are commonly accepted but imo somewhat rude phrases.
Bavaria must be some sort of parallel universe. I never hear people use these terms and expect them to be "commonly accepted".

Nobody else took offense
Apparently you're wrong here.
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Old March 25 2014, 12:47 PM   #325
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Re: list of boyfriend rules

There is a big difference between acknowledging these disparities exist and either actively supporting them or essentially throwing up your hands and saying "there's nothing we can do about it."

I think it's pretty offensive to say, "some people are valued more than others and that's just how it is."

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't treat anyone poorly because of their station in life. I'm courteous to everyone, whether they are a janitor, fast-food worker, retail employee, engineer, middle-manager, or CEO. (I may have to restrain myself from smacking CEOs about, though.) I don't think the CEO is worth more as a human being than the guy who makes my burger. We're all human. Anyone's worth to me has fuck all to do with their paycheck.

It would be one thing if this was a language issue and you just inadvertently used denigrating terms for people in less prestigious positions because you didn't know how to express it in a nuanced way in English, but you've now tripled-down on it and made it pretty clear you really do think it's at least tolerable that people are valued differently in such profoundly unfair ways. Maybe you think it's an acceptable state of affairs but I don't, and clearly others here don't, as well. The least one can do is not actively support it by using terms like "social inferiors."
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Old March 25 2014, 12:50 PM   #326
{ Emilia }
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Re: list of boyfriend rules

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Maybe you think it's an acceptable state of affairs but I don't, and clearly others here don't, as well. The least one can do is not actively support it by using terms like "social inferiors."
That's my beef with this, really. Using terms like this shapes the discourse and helps perpetuate these disgusting social constructs. That Rhub either isn't aware of that or chooses to ignore it is sad.
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Old March 25 2014, 12:51 PM   #327
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Re: list of boyfriend rules

I think you mistake respect for the hard work and the smarts becoming a dentist requires with actual valuing of a person. Because I respect those aspects of someone who completed medical school doesn't mean I subtract how I view anyone else. The dentist is not above a secretary, they just have some extras I know about them that I agree show they worked hard and were smart. It would not be a common experience in my country for people to view this as hierarchical with one above the other.
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Old March 25 2014, 12:53 PM   #328
{ Emilia }
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Re: list of boyfriend rules

teacake wrote: View Post
I think you mistake respect for the hard work and the smarts becoming a dentist requires with actual valuing of a person. Because I respect those aspects of someone who completed medical school doesn't mean I subtract how I view anyone else. The dentist is not above a secretary, they just have some extras I know about them that I agree show they worked hard and were smart. It would not be a common experience in my country for people to view this as hierarchical with one above the other.
Agreed. And I can assure you that it's also not "common experience" in other countries. Not everybody here thinks in terms of "socially inferiors".
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Old March 25 2014, 03:54 PM   #329
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Re: list of boyfriend rules

teacake wrote: View Post
I've never seen or heard anyone viewing a "a waiter, a shop clerk or a cleaner" as lower than them. And when people are shits to waiters and shop clerks it's because they hate delays or they are shitty with the product, NOT because they look down on that person as lesser social rank.
It happens. I'm a bartender, and two of the most common questions I get from random customers are "So what do you really want to do for a living?" or "Do you have a real job besides this?"

Because, to them, working in a bar or restaurant doesn't count as a "real" job.
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Old March 25 2014, 05:55 PM   #330
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Re: list of boyfriend rules

After I had returned home from my gap year I worked as a waitress in a posh hotel. I didn't like it. Most hotel guests were businessmen and I was quite a few times under the impression that they were looking down on me. Of course, that's 15 years or so ago, so things might have changed. But I doubt it. There will always be people who think they are better than others. Not that this okay.
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