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Old February 21 2014, 02:36 AM   #16
Wingsley
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Has anyone ever done any images of either this ship (Probert's Enterprise-C) or the "Yesterday's Enterprise" ship with the saucer separated?
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Old February 21 2014, 03:00 PM   #17
Patrickivan
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

I couldn't really find any...

On a different note, I can't find any real design concepts/stages of the E... Which kind of pisses me off actually. Not being a fan of the ship really because of how greebled out it is, it seems like it was a real quick down and dirty design, as opposed to the elegant fast model Eaves claimed to want... Hell, Voyager had more elegance and I HATE that ship. Primarily because of those dumb tiny moving nacelles. I got the point behind their size and movement, but just didn't like the balance of the ship the way it was.

The Nova was nicely done done though. Fast and simple looking- good balance- pleasing to look at.

But ya. I've found some E "concepts" but they're too close to the final design to really be considered a well thought out shit... I mean ship.
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Old February 21 2014, 04:56 PM   #18
Robert Comsol
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Wingsley wrote: View Post
Has anyone ever done any images of either this ship (Probert's Enterprise-C) or the "Yesterday's Enterprise" ship with the saucer separated?
I was wondering myself, but couldn't find an up-to-date profile comparison. So I asked a friend (with far better skills than mine) to assemble a profile comparison and this is what he came up with:


(top and left is Andrew Probert's Enterprise-C)

The way I see it the saucer is the most congruent part in both designs.

Bob
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Old February 21 2014, 05:14 PM   #19
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

And yet, totally not what he asked.
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Old February 21 2014, 10:24 PM   #20
Robert Comsol
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Since it wasn't clear to me whether Wingsley wanted the secondary hull or the primary hull (which one is the ship once both have separated?) I provided a comparison which is the best I can offer at this moment.

Better something than nothing, I'd say.

Bob
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Old February 21 2014, 11:52 PM   #21
Santa Horrible
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

I know I'm in the minority but I like the Enterprise C we got more then the Enterprise C that Probert designed. I will say that the Probert one does flow better to the Enterprise D, if you want to connect designs.
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Old February 22 2014, 01:56 AM   #22
Dukhat
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Tom Hendricks wrote: View Post
I know I'm in the minority but I like the Enterprise C we got more then the Enterprise C that Probert designed. I will say that the Probert one does flow better to the Enterprise D, if you want to connect designs.
Who said you were in the minority? The truth is that most Trek fans probably are not even aware of the existence of Probert's design, so it's not like there's really any huge debate about it, contrary to what some people would have you think.
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Old February 22 2014, 07:31 AM   #23
Wingsley
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Wingsley wrote: View Post
Has anyone ever done any images of either this ship (Probert's Enterprise-C) or the "Yesterday's Enterprise" ship with the saucer separated?
I was wondering myself, but couldn't find an up-to-date profile comparison. So I asked a friend (with far better skills than mine) to assemble a profile comparison and this is what he came up with:


(top and left is Andrew Probert's Enterprise-C)

The way I see it the saucer is the most congruent part in both designs.

Bob
This illustration is very interesting, and I am pleased and grateful you posted it, but it wasn't quite what I was talking about.

People occasionally post 3D art illustrating either the Probert-designed Enterprise-C or the "Yesterday's Enterprise" -C, but I've never seen anyone post any 3D art showing either of these ships separated. By separated, I mean breaking new ground by showing what the stardrive sections and saucer sections would look like while separated. We already know what the Galaxy-class Enterprise-D looks like separated, but not either of the C's.

While we're on the subject, I have a theory (actually, a couple of them) about the "two Cs":

1: The Enterprise-C was mauled by the Romulan attackers at Nirendra III, so she was considered a "loss". (not salvageable) Since the Enterprise-C was a loss, she was not towed to a Federation spacedock to be repaired and relaunched. It was the end-of-the-line for the C. After the C was declared lost in the line of duty, the Ambassador-class starships were refit, a la TMP-style radical makeover. Other surviving Ambassador-class vessels were upgraded with renovated hulls and improved technology to look like Probert's design (call it "Ambassador, Block 2").

2: Or, perhaps a more plausible theory was that the mauled Enterprise-C was found after the Battle of Nirendra III, perhaps by the Klingons, and became a legend for defending the Klingon world. The Federation, recognizing the diplomatic value of the ship's legacy, towed the Enterprise to a safe port, completely recycled and rebuilt her as the first prototype of the "Ambassador, Block 2" design (Probert's) and put her back into service with an entirely new crew. The TMP-style-refit Enterprise-C served for another 15 years in Starfleet, bolstering Federation prestige and Klingon goodwill while the Galaxy-class starships were being developed to supplement (or to replace) the Ambassadors.

I like the second theory best.
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Old February 22 2014, 09:22 AM   #24
Dukhat
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Or we could just say that the sculpture on the wall was just a stylized version of the exact same ship, and Probert's design isn't really what the ship looked like at all, before or after. But apparently Occam's Razor isn't all that popular with diehards.

Plus, "Yesterday's Enterprise" gives the impression or even outright implication that the ship was totally destroyed. Yes, there were survivors, but they could have left the ship in escape pods or shuttles before that happened.
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Old February 22 2014, 10:44 AM   #25
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Someone built Andy's design in Star Trek Bridge Commander and posted a pic of a saucer separated version of his CG model on his own Facebook page (link), but I dunno if this will work for everyone.
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Old February 22 2014, 03:17 PM   #26
Saul
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

What a beautiful design. Definitely in my top 10.
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Old February 22 2014, 04:29 PM   #27
Robert Comsol
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

@ Wingsley

Here is an image of Andrew Probert's design where we can clearly see the separation lines between stardrive and saucer section, apparently the Enterprise-C wouldn't have the kind of cobra head the Enterprise-D had.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Or we could just say that the sculpture on the wall was just a stylized version of the exact same ship, and Probert's design isn't really what the ship looked like at all, before or after. But apparently Occam's Razor isn't all that popular with diehards.
Look who's talking. For you all those background models in the Wolf 359 aftermath scene are canon, though most fans never could see this clearly onscreen. But you have close-up shots to back this up. Same applies for the Enterprise-C sculpture on the conference lounge's wall, older fans like myself knew what she was supposed to look like because the popular Official Fan Club Magazine published Andrew Probert's painting of his Ambassador Class (text annotation).



According to the shape of the main navigational deflector it's obvious that's not the same kind of starship Rick Sternbach designed.

Maurice wrote: View Post
Just to clarify the issue of the C design. from Facebook today:
Rick Sternbach One could certainly look at my take on the C as the rough prototype that led to the F-117A, and Andy's as the real thing. I don't have whole lot of emotional investment in canon; Trek is what's in your own personal head, so dream of the C you like best.
Straight from the designer's mouth.
So Rick Sternbach doesn't exclude Andrew Probert's to be "the real thing", Andrew Probert says it is, I provided extensive explanations why both designs are canon, but you feel that we should follow your lead and declare Rick Sternbach's design as the only one to be canon at the expense of Andrew Probert's based on events and the aftermath of the Battle of Narendra III which is so inconclusive that even William of Ockham wouldn't feel comfortable to apply his razor.

Considering that you have repeatedly lamented here at the BBS the constant reuse of older ships like the Excelsior in DS9 and the lack of variety in TNG and DS9 (I concur), I absolutely do not understand why you're so opposed that we may have two starship designs from the early 24th Century instead of only one!

Maybe you'd care to explain?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Plus, "Yesterday's Enterprise" gives the impression or even outright implication that the ship was totally destroyed. Yes, there were survivors, but they could have left the ship in escape pods or shuttles before that happened.
I agree. Had the Romulans intended to get their hands on a Federation starship they wouldn't have tried to destroy it, which Captain Garrett's description apparently suggested. I think the Romulans had biger fish to fry, i.e. to destroy the Klingon outpost near Narendra III, leave no Klingon survivors behind, and then frame the Federation for it to start a Klingon-Federation war.

Bob
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Old February 22 2014, 05:45 PM   #28
Dukhat
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

Look who's talking. For you all those background models in the Wolf 359 aftermath scene are canon, though most fans never could see this clearly onscreen. But you have close-up shots to back this up. Same applies for the Enterprise-C sculpture on the conference lounge's wall, older fans like myself knew what she was supposed to look like because the popular Official Fan Club Magazine published Andrew Probert's painting of his Ambassador Class (text annotation).
Yet again, you misunderstand. This is not a debate about "what's more canon." Both the Wolf 359 ships are just as canon as the Probert-influenced wall sculpture. The difference is that those kitbashed ships were shown as actual ships, while the sculpture was...a sculpture. Its specific design wasn't shown as an actual ship, and five pages of a self-serving "treatise" doesn't change that fact. Therefore, I have every right to feel that the sculpture is just an ill-formed representation of the "real" ship we saw in "Yesterday's Enterprise," because, well, that's the simplest and most sensible way to view it based on what we did see of the Enterprise-C.

And for the record, one does not have to be an "older" Trek fan to appreciate certain things. I was well aware of Probert's original painting back during TNG's run when I was in high school, because I also had a subscription to Starlog.
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Old February 22 2014, 06:43 PM   #29
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Yep, in the universe of the onscreen canon, one is a sculpture and the other is an actual starship.
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Old February 22 2014, 10:53 PM   #30
Robert Comsol
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Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

One Enterprise-C is a sculpture of a starship in the undisputed reality of "our" TNG universe, the other Enterprise-C is a starship in an alternate reality, timeline and/or universe.

The mere thought that Captain Picard, who cherishes the truth above all things (read below), would tolerate a historically inaccurate or falsified and misleading reproduction of the renowned predecessor of his Enterprise in his conference lounge, a reception place for alien guests and delicate negotiations, would reduce his principle of truth to absurdity.

Bob
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