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Old February 11 2014, 04:22 PM   #16
-Brett-
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

The chancellor isn't the only person in power in the Klingon empire. If Azetbur had capitulated, she would have appeared weak, been assasinated, and who knows what the next chancellor would have done? If avoiding a war was the goal, it was the best choice.


There's also the inconvenient fact that they'd been tried and convicted of murder.
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Old February 11 2014, 06:10 PM   #17
grendelsbayne
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
I'm expected to believe that nobody was even watching Enterprise on their viewscreen and said in their gutteral Klingonese, "... look at that! The torpedo shot out from 15 kalakams underneath, from what appeared to be empty space!" This strains all credibility, except that, perhaps, it could be argued that the Klingons presumed it to have been fired from aft torpedo launchers. Nah ...
That doesn't strain any credibility at all. There were already at least two, I think, conspirators aboard the Gorkon. How would it be even remotely difficult for someone in Chang's position to ensure that the Watch officers were his own men? There wouldn't even necessarily need to be more than one - if he's the one in charge, he can just turn the viewscreen off.
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Old February 11 2014, 09:13 PM   #18
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Their guilt was established as per recognized klingon jurisdiction/law.
Recognized by the klingons sure, but the Pesident actually watched that farce, he saw things that would never have been allowed to pass in a real court of law. Where was the presentation of evidence? We saw that Starfleet uses a "truth detector" in it's procedings, where was it? Why couldn't the defense examine the hull of Kronos One at the point of impact, and by the defense I mean Starfleet experts? Why wasn't starfleet JAG in the courtroom as Kirk and McCoy's defense,Modern day American JAG lawyers travel al around the world to defend Americans interests.

Why would the Federation President "recognize" what he witnessed on his screen.

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Old February 11 2014, 09:23 PM   #19
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

But it was a real court of law, a Klingon court of law. Sure the Federation might not think it meets their crtieria for what a court of law is. But that doesn't mean it is any less real.
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Old February 11 2014, 09:29 PM   #20
-Brett-
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

A real trial of a real alleged presidential assasin would take days, at least. Expecting the movie to depict a real court of law is more than a little unreasonable.

Besides, governments that want to get along with other governments don't generally disregard the others legal system just because they don't like it.
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Old February 11 2014, 09:32 PM   #21
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Their guilt was established as per recognized klingon jurisdiction/law.
Recognized by the klingons sure, but the Pesident actually watched that farce, he saw things that would never have been allowed to pass in a real court of law. Where was the presentation of evidence? We saw that Starfleet uses a "truth detector" in it's procedings, where was it? Why couldn't the defense examine the hull of Kronos One at the point of impact, and by the defense I mean Starfleet experts? Why wasn't starfleet JAG in the courtroom as Kirk and McCoy's defense,Modern day American JAG lawyers travel al around the world to defend Americans interests.

Why would the Federation President "recognize" what he witnessed on his screen.

The greater good.

Kirk & McCoy are Starfleet officers. They know what that means; the man said it himself: "Risk is our business." The President was given a simple choice: peace--but we try your men under our laws, our way; or you can try to get them back--& have war. Even if the Prime Directive hadn't stipulated that the duo were subject to Klingon law ("our territory, our rules") would you really weigh the lives of 2 figureheads against the lives of billions?

No, he did the only thing he could have in the situation. He preserved the peace, & I not only think Kirk would have understood that & forgiven him later on, but if he'd been given the choice of "deliver yourself to the Klingons or it's war", he'd've not hesitated in saying, "Beam me over." That's not only the nature of command, that's the nature of leadership, & of understanding that sometimes you have to be sacrificed for the larger whole.
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Old February 11 2014, 09:32 PM   #22
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
But it was a real court of law, a Klingon court of law. Sure the Federation might not think it meets their crtieria for what a court of law is. But that doesn't mean it is any less real.
-Brett- wrote: View Post
A real trial of a real alleged presidential assasin would take days, at least. Expecting the movie to depict a real court of law is more than a little unreasonable.

Besides, governments that want to get along with other governments don't generally disregard the others legal system just because they don't like it.
Indeed.
Plus, klingon law and jurisdiction was recognized by the federation and its president (who wasn't 'above the law')*.


T'Girl
*As I've already told you, T'Girl.

BTW, in the klingon court of law, Worf's dad was the defendants' "JAG" - as per klingon procedural rules.
And, as Brett said, expecting the movie to present an entire months-long process is more than a little unrealistic.
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Old February 11 2014, 09:37 PM   #23
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

When Chang arrested Kirk and McCoy, he cited "interstellar law." When asked about the possibility of contesting their arrested, President Ra-ghoratreii responded, "This president is not above the law."

The implication seems to be that their arrest occurred under the provisions of a treaty signed and ratified by both the Federation and the Klingon Empire (perhaps the treaty regulates what constitutes probable cause for an arrest of the other state's citizens when they are aboard a given state's vessels?), and that therefore the arrest aboard a Klingon vessel and removal to Klingon space was legal under Federation law. (Remember, "international law" -- which I think is what they mean by "interstellar law" -- is as much the law in the nations which ratify those treaties as domestic law.)

If both President Ra-ghoratreii and the Klingon Empire agree that the arrest and removal was legal under treaty, then President Ra-ghoratreii did the right thing by not interceding. To do anything less would be to violate the sovereignty of the Klingon Empire.
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Old February 12 2014, 02:31 AM   #24
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

T'Girl wrote: View Post

It's my position that the people of the Federation (and that includes Starfleet personnel) are not simply political pawns, and even though it would have cost more than their two live to do so, Starfleet should have been sent in to attempt a rescue. And in all honesty the Klingons should have been assured that the Federation was morally and ethically unwilling to surrender two of it's own people, even for a important political gain.
People are not political pawns, but they are subject to the law. As Sci and other have pointed out, it is clear from the movie that the treaty empowered the Klingons to arrest and try Kirk and McCoy. Chang even cites a specific article of the treaty when he arrests them. Although we never learn the actual text of that article, his citation of it and the president's statement that he is bound by the law clearly indicate that Chang, and the Empire, were within their rights.

It would be illegal and immoral for the president to withhold aid from a species that needed help and was willing to make peace to get it AND start a war just because the law had an unfortunate outcome in the circumstance.

Nations in our time disregard treaties when it serves them; we should expect more of the leaders of the Federation.
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Old February 13 2014, 12:27 AM   #25
MacLeod
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

-Brett- wrote: View Post
A real trial of a real alleged presidential assasin would take days, at least. Expecting the movie to depict a real court of law is more than a little unreasonable.

Besides, governments that want to get along with other governments don't generally disregard the others legal system just because they don't like it.
That's the Theory at least, it doesn't always work out that way., And of a course a recent court case in Italy could be a test for one country respecting another countries legal system. Once the case in question has gone through all the legalities, appeals, requests etc...
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Old February 13 2014, 02:35 AM   #26
T'Girl
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
And of a course a recent court case in Italy could be a test for one country respecting another countries legal system.
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Old February 13 2014, 02:53 AM   #27
Kirby
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

I think President Foreman should have threatened to personally go into Klingon space and put is foot in the Klingon's collective asses.
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Old February 13 2014, 12:08 PM   #28
grendelsbayne
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

Shik wrote: View Post
I not only think Kirk would have understood that & forgiven him later on, but if he'd been given the choice of "deliver yourself to the Klingons or it's war", he'd've not hesitated in saying, "Beam me over." That's not only the nature of command, that's the nature of leadership, & of understanding that sometimes you have to be sacrificed for the larger whole.
Even more than that, it always seemed to me that that's exactly what Kirk was doing when he voluntarily boarded Kronos 1. Giving himself up to prevent war. Obviously, he may have hoped Mccoy could save Gorkon, and Gorkon likely would have been willing to listen to reason, but he had to already be calculating the worst case scenario, which very obviously would've been his and Mccoy's execution for the murder of the Klingon high chancellor.

What's more, Spock knew that was what he was doing, as well. Why else would he have thought to put the tracking patch on Kirk's uniform?
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Old February 13 2014, 01:11 PM   #29
Runetouch
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Runetouch wrote: View Post
The thing is, the Federation President couldn't know of Kirk and Bones innocence in the matter. For all he knew, they might have been the people who killed Gorkon.
Presumption of innocence or presumption of guilt?
Their guilt was established as per recognized klingon jurisdiction/law.
This. And it would be against the utopian ideals of the Federation to regard other cultures laws as inferior or unjust.
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Old February 13 2014, 01:46 PM   #30
Sci
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Re: Did The Federation President Do The Right Thing?

Runetouch wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

Presumption of innocence or presumption of guilt?
Their guilt was established as per recognized klingon jurisdiction/law.
This. And it would be against the utopian ideals of the Federation to regard other cultures laws as inferior or unjust.
No, it would not.

But it would be a violation of Federation law and Federation values to think that just because you recognize corruption in a foreign society's legal system, that that gives you the right to trample on their sovereignty or to ignore your treaty obligations to them.
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