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Old February 16 2014, 12:33 AM   #16
Danny99
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Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
How to make the Romulan War different from the Dominion War? Don't show it.

Have ENT start with the peace treaty and show the personal hardships, struggles and losses the crew faced and how they cope with them in the aftermath. Add to that the reconstruction needed, the newly formed Federation with alien races now having to serve together for the first time ever, the drive to move away from war and conflict towards something greater.

It'd be a far more character-driven series and not so much about cool-looking ships, space battles and catsuits.
While I agree with a character driven series, I don't agree with not showing the war.

The only reason that Valdore's plan was stopped was that the Aenar decided to revolt. Robot ships could have been used and fit into the not seeing or hearing from either side.
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Old February 20 2014, 10:18 AM   #17
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Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

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AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
I could see either the Earth Government, Starfleet and the Vulcan government (Post Kir'Shara) deciding to hide what the Romulans look like ...
This would work and make sense. It could even be incorporated into a episode when the hero ship encounters a intact body and are sworn to secrecy by Starfleet Command, or they capture/rescue a living Romulan and (ominously) have him taken off their hands by government officials.

Part of the take no prisoners policy could have been to conceal the Vulcan Romulan connection.

Hardly 'this would work'.
It involves actually assuming no one of the thousands of the soldiers/civilians who saw living or dead romulans/remans or performed a DNA test on them decided to speak, instead willingly participating in an orwellian conspiracy - for decades.

The 'remans were used as ground forces' hand-waving doesn't work, either - a DNA test on a dead soldier will easily reveal he's, essentially, a race of vulcans.

Either ignore the 'Balance of terror's ~'we never saw romulans' one-liner;
Or state there were no ground battles in the romulan war - the romulans exterminating from orbit every colony/world they captured via nuclear holcaust. This would fit with what Sisko said about the war, too.
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Old February 20 2014, 10:35 AM   #18
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Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

Danny99 wrote: View Post
While I agree with a character driven series, I don't agree with not showing the war.

The only reason that Valdore's plan was stopped was that the Aenar decided to revolt. Robot ships could have been used and fit into the not seeing or hearing from either side.
I'm thinking that events during the war could be seen during some episodes, showing what the crew did and the impact it had on them. But since we already had a war in DS9, another in ENT would be a little overkill, especially with the aftermath being great story fodder.
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Old February 20 2014, 10:37 AM   #19
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Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

" the romulans exterminating from orbit every colony/world they captured via nuclear holcaust. This would fit with what Sisko said about the war, too"
What we do know about present day Romulans is that they are willing to exploit any avenue in order to gain advantage. From "Enterprise", what we know is that they are willing to both use mines AND use the cloak- something the Federation won't have for hundreds of years.

If I were a Romulan who wanted to win a war, I'd take my impenetrable cloak, a couple hundred ships, fly right into the heart of enemy territory, open up a rear hatch and just start tossing (similarily cloaked) mines out left and right. Mines just popping up everywhere, blowing up Earth vessels? And of course orbital bombardment as well. No need to fire a disruptor or a photon torpedo (and thus decloak the ship)- the Romulans had a clear tactical advantage so long as they stayed invisible, so for a four year war it could make sense that they use that advantage.

We're talking massive casualties from an enemy that -we never got a glimpse of- but still had to figure out how to fight.

An entire war waged against a foe we never saw. It would require completely new tactics, some sort of brilliant strategy and a great deal of luck, but according to ST history, the humans won.
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Old February 20 2014, 01:47 PM   #20
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Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

No one in the trekverse makes full use of its technological capabilities (ex - in the 24th century, arguably sooner, the federation has subspace transporters, ideal weapons platforms; can create tranporter duplicates of people; the romulans can exterminate all main federation worlds by using cloacked long-range torpedos; etc).

That being said, introducing cloak* tactics - beyond the ship decloaks before firing - would be an inspired move in an hypothetical romulan war production.

*And the fans will rage on the net: 'Balance of terror' establishes that:
-the romulans were not seen during the war;
-they don't have warp in the 23rd century;
-their cloack is new - it would be fub to watch all the ~'it rapes my childhood' type reactions to introducing large scale cloak tech during the romulan war.
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Old February 20 2014, 02:32 PM   #21
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Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

Yes, Scotty's line in Balance of Terror about the Romulans using "simple impulse" has been a source of discussion for quite some time.

Of course, we could extrapolate, if the cloak was used but never revealed as being used during the war, then Spock's line could hold some water- a cloaked ship can't fire a torpedo, but it could launch a "primitive space vessel" (an automated one) out the back of a cloaked ship. That primitive vessel would begin, at a set point, to suddenly start launching nuclear weapons at a planet. That would reconcile what was said in Balance of Terror, would it not?

The Romulans could wage an entire war and cause massive casualties without ever even risking one of their own ships, or a single crewman.
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Old February 21 2014, 04:46 PM   #22
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Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

The romulans used large-scale cloak during the war and, a century later, Spock is surprised the romulans can hide their ships?
The Federation doesn't have a dozen theories about how the romulans did it? In a century, the Federation did not develop the technology so successfully used by the romulans?

AverageWriter, this is yet another convoluted explanation that doesn't hold water when examined in detail.
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Old February 21 2014, 05:03 PM   #23
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Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

Enterprise already established Romulan cloaking devices in the 2150's. It was a straight-up retcon, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't need 'fixing' and if fans can't enjoy both "Balance of Terror" and "Minefield" because they disagree on few lines, they're watching Star Trek wrong.
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Old February 21 2014, 05:10 PM   #24
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Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

That didn't stop a LOT of fans - in this thread, too* - (and even some professional writers - see the recent rather tedious romulan war books) from trying. And largely failing to come up with a satisfactory explanation.

*Which is entirely appropriate, considering the thread title, despite your opinion, King Daniel Into Darkness. BTW, haven't you been trying to reconcile various contradictions from trek canon in this very forum?

PS - I do agree that, if and when the discussions degenerate into ~'it rapes my childhood' statements (it's been known to happen) - well, their only remaining value is their unintentional hilarity.
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Old February 21 2014, 08:20 PM   #25
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Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

Edit XYZ-

I don't appreciate your tone.

I also note that in your haste to make your rather inflammatory post, you neglected to notice that my last post detailed how the Federation could be entirely unaware of the use of cloaking technology during the war, as well as being under the impression during that same war that the Romulans tech was "primitive". There's nothing "convoluted" about using smart tactics during a war, neither is there anything "convoluted" about using "paper walls" to give the enemy a different impression about the enemy than is truth.

At the time of the first war, the Romulans knew that an outright, ship vs. ship firefight style war would leave them at a tactical disadvantage. They couldn't outgun or outrun the humans, but they knew that they had both the elements of surprise and the singular cloaking technology that the humans didn't.

It is completely reasonable to assume that, when faced with that prospect, that the Romulans would do everything possible to use the cloak to their advantage while at the SAME time trying to ensure that the humans never caught on. It's not "convoluted"- it's a smart strategy that ensures that your enemy never figures out how to corner you. They think that you've got "small, primitive ships" that somehow are quickly warping into a region and launching assaults. The use of automated strike vessels also ensures that, during the war, the humans never see a Romulan (which is explicitly stated during Balance of Terror).

Such tactics would undoubtedly be very costly and time intensive- chances are, realistically, even using tactics that one would think to be flawless, eventually the war funds would run out. The humans outlasted them until victory at Cheron.

I expect more from this forum than what you posted.

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Old February 21 2014, 09:20 PM   #26
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Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

AverageWriter

I see you insist on a baby steps analysis. Very well.
Either
1 Your 'small, primitive ships' will be seen exiting from the cloaking fields of other ships AKA the federation easily becomes aware of the romulan cloack.
Or
2 The cloaked ships, at all times, stayed beyond the sensor range of the federation - in its own territory filled with patrols, sensor posts, etc - which means:
-cloak tactics will not be making an appearance in this romulan war beyond a few lines from the romulan side;
-for your small, primitive ships to be able to fool the federation in thinking there are no mother ships, they need to have long range warp capability - at the very least. Meaning, the non-idiotic strategy for the romulans would be to just send these small, primitive ships - now not so primitive long range warp ships - from Romulus, skipping the cloaked mother ships step;
-the Federation not 'seeing', even once during the war, how, in its own space, small, primitive ships exit from the mother ships; or not deducing the existence of romulan cloaking technology that hides their ships until they're deep in federation space is both convoluted and makes the Federation people seem inept;
-the federation is now depicted, again, as highly incompetent in not even being able to stop small, primitive ships while they come from far beyond the star system/beyond federation space;
-etc

Anyway you try to twist it, your explanation remains highly convoluted; indeed, it has de facto become just a vehicle to use the word 'cloak' during the romulan war, sacrificing large chunks of story believability for this.
PS - This won't change no matter how annoyed you are by this fact, AverageWriter.
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Old February 22 2014, 12:30 AM   #27
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Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
The 'remans were used as ground forces' hand-waving doesn't work, either - a DNA test on a dead soldier will easily reveal he's, essentially, a race of vulcans.
Since when are Remans the same species as Vulcans and Romulans? Just because they have pointed ears and mental abilities? That would make the Ocampa Vulcans too.

Remans are a completely different species.

Either ignore the 'Balance of terror's ~'we never saw romulans' one-liner
Or take the line into account and build the storyline accordingly.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Hardly 'this would work'. It involves actually assuming no one of the thousands of the soldiers/civilians who saw living or dead romulans/remans or performed a DNA test on them decided to speak
That thought line would require that those thousands saw a Romulan in the first place. Instead of a few dozen or a hundred people, military personnel routinely keep high level secrets for the entirety of their lives.

Recovered Romulan bodies (especially after a space battle) could easily be mangled beyond immediate identification. And a captured prisoner wouldn't interact with the majority of the crew, just a few officer and the guards.

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
I'm thinking that events during the war could be seen during some episodes, showing what the crew did and the impact it had on them.
Something like the regular use of flashbacks in the series Highlander perhaps?



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Old February 22 2014, 10:34 AM   #28
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Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Either ignore the 'Balance of terror's ~'we never saw romulans' one-liner
Or take the line into account and build the storyline accordingly.
A laudable goal.
So far, everyone failed in dientangling this Gordian knot.

For example, your latest attempt:
The 'remans were used as ground forces' hand-waving doesn't work, either - a DNA test on a dead soldier will easily reveal he's, essentially, a race of vulcans.
Since when are Remans the same species as Vulcans and Romulans? Just because they have pointed ears and mental abilities? That would make the Ocampa Vulcans too.

Remans are a completely different species.
The remans are expressly established as a vulcan race in 'Vulcan's soul' trilogy. Since trek lit is not canon - point taken.

Let's go to the 'Balance of terror' lines you're trying to work with:
"this conflict was fought,[...] By our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels[...] Which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other."

'no ship to ship visual communication'?
Some semantic trickery may help with this - as it helped with Scotty's 'simple impulse'.
So, Spock's vulcan brain was sloppy and he meant to say 'Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication used' as opposed to 'primitive space vessels where there wasn't even ship-to-ship visual communication'.

'no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other'?
ally=reman. None seen during the war.

Hardly 'this would work'. It involves actually assuming no one of the thousands of the soldiers/civilians who saw living or dead romulans/remans or performed a DNA test on them decided to speak
That thought line would require that those thousands saw a Romulan in the first place. Instead of a few dozen or a hundred people, military personnel routinely keep high level secrets for the entirety of their lives.

Recovered Romulan bodies (especially after a space battle) could easily be mangled beyond immediate identification. And a captured prisoner wouldn't interact with the majority of the crew, just a few officer and the guards.
A conflict involving billions, with forces/ground battles large enough to affect interstellar empires? That translates into, at the very least, thousands of civilian/military seeing said ground forces.

What are the chances that all romulans/remans recovered during space/gound battles had bodies mangled beyond recognition? Again, highly convoluted. I trust I don't need to further explain why.
Plus, there're DNA tests, reconstructive forensics, etc.

And despite your poor opinion of the military mind, some years after they're no longer of actuality, military secrets emerge just fine.
Yes, military training has as one of its purposes to put a leash inside the recruit's head; but, with some exceptions, this doesn't turn the soldier into an automaton.
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Old February 22 2014, 02:35 PM   #29
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Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

In this post I will try my hand at reconciling 'Balance of terror' with Ent and the rest of trek.

The relevant lines from 'Balance of terror':
1 "SPOCK: this conflict was fought,[...] By our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels[...]Which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other."

The war was fought with primitive ships only when compared to the 23rd century ones. This is supported by Ent: 'In a mirror, darkly' 1,2, where the technological difference between said periods is shown.
Indeed, an interstellar starship cannot be considered 'primitive' in another sense: its builders need to have an exact idea of the physical laws and be advanced in a variety of engineering fields.

There were no ground battles; no seeing your enemy on the battlefield. One limitation necessarily imposed by 'Balance of terror'.

The romulans used mostly warp capable drone ships - 'no prisoners to capture, no bodies to recover'.
Not remote controlled as in Ent: 'The Aenar' trilogy; the dramatic potential of this concept was exhausted there.
Instead, the drone ships are equipped with AIs; a Lovecraftian enemy, accomplishing the missions with no hesitation or regret - they don't have for them useless visual communications installed.
There may be some conventional romulan ships present during the war - which have as policy self-destruction when incapacitated.

The romulan strategy - nuclear extermination of the worlds they captured; not occupation or something similar.


2 About the cloak. 'Balance of terror':
"KIRK: I don't see anything. I can't understand it.
SPOCK: Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain, with selective bending of light. But the power cost is enormous. They may have solved that problem."

Ent establishes heavy suliban use of the cloak; it also establishes that the romulans have cloaking and are not shy in using it.
By necessity, this means that Kirk, Spock&co were not well read on this issue. Now - the name of the game is excusing Kirk, Spock&co's lack of knowledge on the cloak subject without making them look like incult fools who don't know their history.

Let's see - Ent also establishes that Daniels gave Archer a technology able to see easily through suliban cloak.
I can posit that, at the beginning of the war, there was some cloak use by the romulans. The Federation, early in the war, perhaps building on Daniels gift, created a foolproof way of seeing through the romulan cloak, rendering it useless.

So foolproof, that Federation experts assumed the cloaking technology has no future. As such, in the decades that followed, there was no attempt by the Federation to perfect the cloaking technology; indeed, it remained known only to a small nostalgic fringe, to which, Kirk, Spock&co didn't belong.

The romulans, on the other hand, did not give up on the cloak. After decades of trying, they created one that hid - somewhat - their ships from starfleet sensors - as per 'Balance of terror'.
After said episode, the Federation became interested enough to capture a cloak, perhaps even outfit a few of its ships with reverse engineered cloaks.

Fundamentally, though, based on how thoroughly the cloak was overcome during the War, experts in the Federation remained convinced that this new type of cloak will soon be thoroughly defeated, returning to being as obsolete as it used to be.
As such, the Federation was not interested in pursuing the technology. At the Treaty of Algeron, the Federation renounced what it saw as a dead-end technology.
Needless to say, the Federation "experts" who made this determination were wrong. Disastrously so. As such, a century later, the Federation is severely handicapped by the legally binding interdiction in building, perfecting or using cloaks.

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Old February 22 2014, 07:28 PM   #30
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Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi

"Your 'small, primitive ships' will be seen exiting from the cloaking fields of other ships AKA the federation easily becomes aware of the romulan cloack."
OR just release them in the many, MANY vast nebula that hide the ships from sensors (even MODERN sensors) and have them exit from there. The humans would have assumed they warped in, hid in the nebula and exited to attack. And again, those nebula are EVERYWHERE.

You think you're brilliant, but you're not interested in discussion. You don't debate, you argue, and I don't want to argue with you.
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