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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old February 9 2015, 02:15 AM   #1
HigHurtenflurst
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Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federation?

So.... Picard meets the Borg (in Q Who? I think?) and shoots some big holes in the cube and disables it before they can adapt. Then... he stops shooting, and wastes all kinds of time poking around investigating. (I get it, it's what they do, OK) BUT: if he had just kept shooting, it looked like he very well could have totally destroyed it and moved on before the Borg had a chance to adapt and tell all the others about the Feds.

So I blame Picard and his damn noble curiosity for Wolf 359 et al. And that's even before he was Locutusized!
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Old February 9 2015, 02:37 AM   #2
Mark 2000
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Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

I agree, Picard did spend too much time sitting there when he should have been either blasting or running. They go to the briefing room so many times for reasons that baffle me. Still, I don't think he did anything worth damning him for. The Borg were already on the Romulan border by that time. It was only a matter of when they would strike further..
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Old February 9 2015, 03:49 AM   #3
Ryan Thomas Riddle
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Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Mark 2000 wrote: View Post
I agree, Picard did spend too much time sitting there when he should have been either blasting or running. They go to the briefing room so many times for reasons that baffle me.
That's a lot of TNG episodes. A life-threatening crisis is happening and Picard calls a conference.
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Old February 9 2015, 04:04 AM   #4
HigHurtenflurst
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Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Mark 2000 wrote: View Post
I agree, Picard did spend too much time sitting there when he should have been either blasting or running. They go to the briefing room so many times for reasons that baffle me. Still, I don't think he did anything worth damning him for. The Borg were already on the Romulan border by that time. It was only a matter of when they would strike further..
Yeah but: after dithering and letting the Borg re-generate, they learned how to repel Federation weapons. If he'd have just blown 'em up real good, then the next Federation ships could have done the same. He totally blew their tactical advantage, and they never got it back.
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Old February 9 2015, 04:13 AM   #5
Mark 2000
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Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

HigHurtenflurst wrote: View Post
Yeah but: after dithering and letting the Borg re-generate, they learned how to repel Federation weapons. If he'd have just blown 'em up real good, then the next Federation ships could have done the same. He totally blew their tactical advantage, and they never got it back.
You're assuming they weren't relaying their info on the E in real time to the rest of the collective.
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Old February 9 2015, 04:39 AM   #6
HigHurtenflurst
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Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Mark 2000 wrote: View Post

You're assuming they weren't relaying their info on the E in real time to the rest of the collective.
This is true. But if he had destroyed the cube immediately, just started pouring torpedoes into them until they blew up, they may not have had time to analyze or send anything at all. Once he started carving great gaping holes in the cube with phasers, it looked like the whole thing could have been over in a matter of seconds if he had only kept up that rate of fire.

Just playing devils advocate.
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Old February 9 2015, 04:49 AM   #7
Sran
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Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Mark 2000 wrote: View Post
You're assuming they weren't relaying their info on the E in real time to the rest of the collective.
Except that there's no relaying involved. The essence of the Collective is such that what any single drone learns, the rest of the Collective immediately learns, too. Whatever the cube encountered by the Enterprise at J-25 learned would instantly have been learned by the rest of the Collective in the DQ. Even destroying the cube within minutes of encountering it would not have prevented such an occurrence.

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Old February 9 2015, 05:01 AM   #8
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Picard's attacks in Q Who did a little bit of minor damage that was instantly repaired, what are you talking about?

Picard did not disable the Borg cube by shooting some small dents in it. The Borg cube just knew it could catch the Enterprise so it was the most efficient solution to focus on repairs.

Last edited by JirinPanthosa; February 9 2015 at 05:32 AM.
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Old February 9 2015, 05:54 AM   #9
Ithekro
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Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

There were some nice chunks blown off the corners and sides of the Cube the first few times. After that the Enterprise's weapons did basically nothing.
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Old February 9 2015, 06:14 AM   #10
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Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Picard's attacks in Q Who did a little bit of minor damage that was instantly repaired, what are you talking about?

Picard did not disable the Borg cube by shooting some small dents in it. The Borg cube just knew it could catch the Enterprise so it was the most efficient solution to focus on repairs.
That's not true. The E destroys 20% of the cube in that volley. The cube was so damaged that they cut life support to minimum. O'Brien had to search for a habitable part of the cube to beam Riker into. They needed all their energies to repair what the E had done.
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Old February 9 2015, 06:24 AM   #11
T'Girl
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Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Sran wrote: View Post
The essence of the Collective is such that what any single drone learns, the rest of the Collective immediately learns, too.
The Borg Queen having to build a interplexing beacon in First Contact says otherwise.

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Old February 9 2015, 07:11 AM   #12
kirkfan
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Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Sran wrote: View Post
Mark 2000 wrote: View Post
You're assuming they weren't relaying their info on the E in real time to the rest of the collective.
Except that there's no relaying involved. The essence of the Collective is such that what any single drone learns, the rest of the Collective immediately learns, too. Whatever the cube encountered by the Enterprise at J-25 learned would instantly have been learned by the rest of the Collective in the DQ. Even destroying the cube within minutes of encountering it would not have prevented such an occurrence.

--Sran
It's true that in Unimatrix Zero the borg queen seems to be aware of every cube and able to self-destruct it in real time.
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Old February 9 2015, 09:53 AM   #13
Ithekro
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Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Sran wrote: View Post
The essence of the Collective is such that what any single drone learns, the rest of the Collective immediately learns, too.
The Borg Queen having to build a interplexing beacon in First Contact says otherwise.

Time Travel and having your forces in a time before you have the technology does that sort of thing. The transwarp network was not up yet at leat as far back as the 2150s as the Borg needed to send a long range subspace radio message to the Delta Quadrant while running from Archer's Enterprise. A message that would take maybe a 100 years to reach its destination.
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Old February 9 2015, 11:10 AM   #14
kirkfan
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Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Ithekro wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Sran wrote: View Post
The essence of the Collective is such that what any single drone learns, the rest of the Collective immediately learns, too.
The Borg Queen having to build a interplexing beacon in First Contact says otherwise.

Time Travel and having your forces in a time before you have the technology does that sort of thing. The transwarp network was not up yet at leat as far back as the 2150s as the Borg needed to send a long range subspace radio message to the Delta Quadrant while running from Archer's Enterprise. A message that would take maybe a 100 years to reach its destination.
The borg from tng era were to the twenty first century borg what One from voyager was to the 24th century borg. Remember that he defeated an entire borg sphere all by himself without much effort.
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Old February 9 2015, 11:48 AM   #15
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Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

It's easy to look at the events of Q Who with 20:20 hindsight, but at the time, the threat of the Borg, and their ability to adapt, was not known. There was no reason to destroy the Cube straight away, in fact doing so would have been bizarrely out of character. Picard's mission is to seek out new life and reach a peaceful coexistence wherever possible. He acted entirely properly.
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