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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old April 3 2014, 03:09 PM   #136
Hando
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Markonian wrote: View Post
Just to add to the confusion: ENT: "Azati Prime" sees the Battle of Procyon V in an alternate timeline.
Well, in that timeline the Andorian may have died out.
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Old April 3 2014, 06:20 PM   #137
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ I know one thing, the inner workings of Tellarite government are probably hilarious to watch. I'd love to get a seat at the gallery when their legislature is in session. Given how blunt Tellarites are...the arguments would be legendary.
And aren't Tellarites the type to jump to conclusions? I bet they love bold accusations and filibusters.
Markonian wrote: View Post
Just to add to the confusion: ENT: "Azati Prime" sees the Battle of Procyon V in an alternate timeline.
I suppose maybe at that moment when the Federation takes out the Sphere Builders Andor's planet is on the opposite side of the Procyon system than Procyon V. That, however rests on if A. you accept Procyon as the Andorian home star and B. you accept the future shown in "Azati Prime" as the actual future. I do for both.
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Old April 3 2014, 10:59 PM   #138
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
Markonian wrote: View Post
Just to add to the confusion: ENT: "Azati Prime" sees the Battle of Procyon V in an alternate timeline.
I suppose maybe at that moment when the Federation takes out the Sphere Builders Andor's planet is on the opposite side of the Procyon system than Procyon V. That, however rests on if A. you accept Procyon as the Andorian home star and B. you accept the future shown in "Azati Prime" as the actual future. I do for both.
The future from "Azati Prime" was an alternate one from the start. In that timeline, the Xindi attack on Earth didn't occur and we had an ever-expanding expanse throughout TOS, TNG and afterwards. Archer's actions averted that timeline and led to a new one - where "our" TOS and TNG are set in. Thus, anything might have happend to the Andorians between 2153 and 2553 in the alternate future.
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Old April 4 2014, 12:50 AM   #139
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Markonian wrote: View Post
Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
Markonian wrote: View Post
Just to add to the confusion: ENT: "Azati Prime" sees the Battle of Procyon V in an alternate timeline.
I suppose maybe at that moment when the Federation takes out the Sphere Builders Andor's planet is on the opposite side of the Procyon system than Procyon V. That, however rests on if A. you accept Procyon as the Andorian home star and B. you accept the future shown in "Azati Prime" as the actual future. I do for both.
The future from "Azati Prime" was an alternate one from the start. In that timeline, the Xindi attack on Earth didn't occur and we had an ever-expanding expanse throughout TOS, TNG and afterwards. Archer's actions averted that timeline and led to a new one - where "our" TOS and TNG are set in. Thus, anything might have happend to the Andorians between 2153 and 2553 in the alternate future.
How do you know that the Xindi attack on Earth didn't occur in the "Azati Prime" timeline? All Daniels says in the episode is that "I've brought you to a monumental moment in history." And the way I see it, the Sphere Builders are going to build more spheres in the prime timeline and thus the Battle of Procyon V will still occur.
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Old April 4 2014, 01:46 AM   #140
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Re: Members of the Federation.

No, the future of "Azati Prime" was the original timeline in which the Federation blocked the Sphere Builders. The SBs goaded the Xindi to attack Earth in order to alter that timeline by preventing the Federation from ever existing. As I see it, the "Azati Prime" future was their first attempt to invade our universe and the creation of the Delphic Expanse was the second, creating a different timeline by intervening earlier in history.

Anyway, I'm missing a step in the logic behind this argument. What does it matter whether the Andorians are still around or where their planet is in its orbit? Procyon is still named Procyon whether they're there or not.
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Old April 4 2014, 02:57 AM   #141
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Christopher wrote: View Post
No, the future of "Azati Prime" was the original timeline in which the Federation blocked the Sphere Builders. The SBs goaded the Xindi to attack Earth in order to alter that timeline by preventing the Federation from ever existing. As I see it, the "Azati Prime" future was their first attempt to invade our universe and the creation of the Delphic Expanse was the second, creating a different timeline by intervening earlier in history.

Anyway, I'm missing a step in the logic behind this argument. What does it matter whether the Andorians are still around or where their planet is in its orbit? Procyon is still named Procyon whether they're there or not.
The Delphic Expanse argument is tangential I guess. But then how did the Sphere Builders create the Delphic Expanse in the "Azati Prime" timeline if in that timeline they didn't deploy the spheres by the 22nd century as in the prime timeline as you say?

Now on a different note, is anyone here besides me annoyed at how often Star Trek conflates states, capital planets/moons, and species as "members" of the Federation? The Federation is a political institution, and therefore member states should be consistently the "members" of the Federation. After all, aren't a fair number of humans not Federation citizens, members states like the United Rigel Worlds and Colonies containing multiple constituent species, the Beteulgeusians maybe not even having a current capital planet, and some Federation citizens like Rugal Pa'Dar not even from Federation planets, etc.?

Last edited by Enterprise1701; April 4 2014 at 03:08 AM. Reason: Secondary point.
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Old April 4 2014, 04:05 AM   #142
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
The Delphic Expanse argument is tangential I guess. But then how did the Sphere Builders create the Delphic Expanse in the "Azati Prime" timeline if in that timeline they didn't deploy the spheres by the 22nd century as in the prime timeline as you say?
That's not what I said. What I meant was that after their first attempt to deploy the spheres sometime in the future was thwarted by the Federation, they went back and deployed the spheres earlier in order to prevent the Federation from existing at all. Basic time-travel logic: if someone beats you, go back to before it happened and undo it.
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Old April 4 2014, 06:27 AM   #143
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
Now on a different note, is anyone here besides me annoyed at how often Star Trek conflates states, capital planets/moons, and species as "members" of the Federation? The Federation is a political institution, and therefore member states should be consistently the "members" of the Federation. After all, aren't a fair number of humans not Federation citizens, members states like the United Rigel Worlds and Colonies containing multiple constituent species, the Beteulgeusians maybe not even having a current capital planet, and some Federation citizens like Rugal Pa'Dar not even from Federation planets, etc.?
I find it a bit frustrating sometimes, but ultimately it's no worse than the real-world tendency to conflate nations, states, and countries in American vernacular. It does seem that most Federation Member States' territories are essentially coterminous with only a single planet or a single capital planet and a couple of less-developed in-system colonies, though.
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Old April 4 2014, 09:32 PM   #144
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Maybe it's similar to how countries/governments are often referred to by their capitals. And member territory is nothing but empty space around planets.

The Azati point was, it wouldn't be called the Battle of Procyon V if the system is generally known as the Andorian system, would it?
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Old April 4 2014, 09:54 PM   #145
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Markonian wrote: View Post
The Azati point was, it wouldn't be called the Battle of Procyon V if the system is generally known as the Andorian system, would it?
That's no greater a contradiction than decades of fan sources putting Andor at Epsilon Indi despite "And the Children Shall Lead" referring to Epsilon Indi by name. Or, for that matter, TOS referring to "Alpha Carinae II" and "Alpha Carinae V" while also using that star's more familiar name Canopus in a couple of other episodes. Or Sarek being said to have negotiated a treaty with "Alpha Cygnus IX" when Alpha Cygni is actually Deneb. There are multiple such cases in Trek, so it's not a deal-breaker.

Just think of it like "United States" versus "North America," say, or "India" versus "South Asia." Sometimes different place names overlap.
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Old April 4 2014, 10:46 PM   #146
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Say, has any Star Trek work ever referred to Procyon as Alpha Canis Minoris?

And Christopher, you say you interpret Daniels's statements of questionable plausibility as necessary lies for the job? What if.....he was lying about at least some part of the Battle of Procyon V, such as if Daniels had actually taken Archer to a 31st century holodeck in order to put on a good lie to talk Archer out of going to Azati Prime?
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Old April 9 2014, 12:48 AM   #147
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Not according to Memory Beta, though there was a FASA RPG module that references a Canis Minoris XII without specifying which star in Canis Minor it was.
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Old April 9 2014, 03:25 AM   #148
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Re: Members of the Federation.

Idran wrote: View Post
Not according to Memory Beta, though there was a FASA RPG module that references a Canis Minoris XII without specifying which star in Canis Minor it was.
Wow. Not even a usable real-life Bayer designation, eh? No matter, I generally don't consider FASA modules to be viable sources.
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Old April 9 2014, 03:42 AM   #149
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Re: Members of the Federation.

I wish there was a wiki that only utilized novel sources. Memory Beta's incorporation the old FASA RPG, Star Trek Online, and other disparate sources really mucks up the works and makes it hard to tell what's what.
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Old April 9 2014, 04:02 AM   #150
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Re: Members of the Federation.

I'm okay with Mem Beta referencing those other continuities; I just wish they'd be listed separately rather than jumbled together.
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