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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old March 1 2014, 11:47 AM   #1
USS Ername
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Something about Redemption Part II

How could Picard know about the "Yesterday's Enterprise incident"?

It's supposed that happened in a alternate universe, and the NCC D only saw the NCC C one second in "our" universe. Moreover, Guinan decided keep the incident as a secret (well, I understood that).
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Old March 1 2014, 11:58 AM   #2
Finn
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Re: Something about Redemption Part II

He didn't know about it. Sela told him about Tasha Yar. Guinan confirmed it in one of her enigmatic conversations with Picard in that episode.
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Old March 1 2014, 01:01 PM   #3
Anwar
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Re: Something about Redemption Part II

In the corrected timeline, it's entirely possible that the Klingons told the Feds that their fellow Fleeters heroically sacrificed themselves to save Narendra III.
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Old March 1 2014, 03:17 PM   #4
Lance
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Re: Something about Redemption Part II

Anwar wrote: View Post
In the corrected timeline, it's entirely possible that the Klingons told the Feds that their fellow Fleeters heroically sacrificed themselves to save Narendra III.
Indeed. Data even theorizes to that effect in "Yesterday's Enterprise":

RIKER: With all due respect, sir, you'd be asking one hundred and twenty five people to die a meaningless death!

DATA: Not necessarily meaningless, Commander. The Klingons regard honour above all else. If the crew of the Enterprise-C had died fighting for the survival of a Klingon outpost, it would be considered a meaningful act of honour by the Klingon Empire.
Admittedly not proof that's what actually happened, but its certainly good enough for me. I can certainly imagine the Klingons putting the "They fought with honor!" spin on things, which is what ensures peace.

Of course, nobody seemingly knew about Tasha being kidnapped by Romulans. So maybe it wasn't as simple as that... maybe the Romulans did land a striking blow of sorts. Something the Klingons weren't aware of.
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Old March 2 2014, 07:58 PM   #5
Hober Mallow
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Re: Something about Redemption Part II

Finn wrote: View Post
He didn't know about it. Sela told him about Tasha Yar. Guinan confirmed it in one of her enigmatic conversations with Picard in that episode.
And Picard found both Sela and Guinan's claim's dubious.
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Old March 2 2014, 10:11 PM   #6
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Re: Something about Redemption Part II

Starfleet no doubt knows what happened to the Enterrpise-C, it just would not know about the temporal detour (except for Guinan, Sela and Tasha).
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Old March 3 2014, 10:55 PM   #7
Robert Comsol
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Re: Something about Redemption Part II

I examined the context of aforementioned events as part of my Enterprise-C thread.

PICARD: Enterprise C? She was lost at the battle of Narendra III, defending a Klingon outpost from the Romulans.
GUINAN: And the survivors?
PICARD: There were stories of prisoners taken back to Romulus, but these were only rumors.

("Redemption, II")

I think it stands to reason that there had been Klingon survivors from Narendra III (possibly the re-appearance of the Enterprise-C bought one or some enough time to evacuate) to live and to tell the story.

The rumors were probably spread by merchantmen that smuggled Romulan Ale out of the Neutral Zone (and possibly Tasha tried to escape on one of these vessels with Sela).

There had been no communication whatsoever between the Federation and the Romulans since the Tomed Incident, 30 years before and 19 years after Narendra III.

Other than that I have absolutely no doubt that the Klingon outpost on Narendra III was destroyed either way and in both timelines / universes.

"Battle-weary" Picard in "Yesterday's Enterprise" only speculated when he said "The Narendra Three outpost was destroyed. It is regrettable that you did not succeed. A Federation starship rescuing a Klingon outpost might have averted twenty years of war."

The Enterprise-C had suffered critical damage and apparently had not taken out one of the four Romulan warbirds, yet. The "last ship standing" must have been at least one of these warbirds (in order to take Tasha and the other survivors as prisoners to Romulus) and I'm sure the Romulans finished what they had begun (trying to frame the Federation for the assault, why else should the Klingons have turned onto the Federation and not the Romulans?)

I think the "universe at war" Riker, unlike Picard, understood the situation much better: "That won't accomplish anything, sir. There's no way they can save Narendra III."

Bob
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Old March 3 2014, 11:16 PM   #8
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Re: Something about Redemption Part II

The question I'd always had about Redemption Part II was whether anybody was ever going to be courageous enough and tell Data that the ``bridge'' he was operating from was the supply closet, and that's why it was maybe six feet by four feet and didn't have any stations or anything.
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Old March 3 2014, 11:20 PM   #9
Dukhat
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Re: Something about Redemption Part II

Nebusj wrote: View Post
The question I'd always had about Redemption Part II was whether anybody was ever going to be courageous enough and tell Data that the ``bridge'' he was operating from was the supply closet, and that's why it was maybe six feet by four feet and didn't have any stations or anything.
True. I always wondered why they didn't just shoot the Sutherland scenes on the Enterprise-D bridge, considering the two ships have the same outward bridge dome. All they would have had to do was recess the lighting to show that it was a different bridge.
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Old March 3 2014, 11:59 PM   #10
Armored Saint
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Re: Something about Redemption Part II

Nebusj wrote: View Post
The question I'd always had about Redemption Part II was whether anybody was ever going to be courageous enough and tell Data that the ``bridge'' he was operating from was the supply closet, and that's why it was maybe six feet by four feet and didn't have any stations or anything.
Bah, the Excelsior didn't have individual cabin for each crewmembers, so it's not so shocking to have hobbit-bridges in the 24th century.
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Old March 4 2014, 02:31 AM   #11
PhoenixClass
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Re: Something about Redemption Part II

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I examined the context of aforementioned events as part of my Enterprise-C thread.

PICARD: Enterprise C? She was lost at the battle of Narendra III, defending a Klingon outpost from the Romulans.
GUINAN: And the survivors?
PICARD: There were stories of prisoners taken back to Romulus, but these were only rumors.

("Redemption, II")

I think it stands to reason that there had been Klingon survivors from Narendra III (possibly the re-appearance of the Enterprise-C bought one or some enough time to evacuate) to live and to tell the story.

The rumors were probably spread by merchantmen that smuggled Romulan Ale out of the Neutral Zone (and possibly Tasha tried to escape on one of these vessels with Sela).

There had been no communication whatsoever between the Federation and the Romulans since the Tomed Incident, 30 years before and 19 years after Narendra III.

Other than that I have absolutely no doubt that the Klingon outpost on Narendra III was destroyed either way and in both timelines / universes.

"Battle-weary" Picard in "Yesterday's Enterprise" only speculated when he said "The Narendra Three outpost was destroyed. It is regrettable that you did not succeed. A Federation starship rescuing a Klingon outpost might have averted twenty years of war."

The Enterprise-C had suffered critical damage and apparently had not taken out one of the four Romulan warbirds, yet. The "last ship standing" must have been at least one of these warbirds (in order to take Tasha and the other survivors as prisoners to Romulus) and I'm sure the Romulans finished what they had begun (trying to frame the Federation for the assault, why else should the Klingons have turned onto the Federation and not the Romulans?)

I think the "universe at war" Riker, unlike Picard, understood the situation much better: "That won't accomplish anything, sir. There's no way they can save Narendra III."

Bob
But it did accomplish something, whether the Enterprise succeeded in saving the outpost or not. To the Klingons, it would not matter if the Enterprise won or not. What mattered was that the ship fought in a glorious battle on their behalf. It was the act, not the outcome, that was important and that won favor with the Klingons.

Last edited by PhoenixClass; March 4 2014 at 04:59 AM.
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Old March 4 2014, 04:00 AM   #12
The Old Mixer
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Re: Something about Redemption Part II

Wasn't the Sutherland undergoing repairs or somesuch when it was pulled into service? Maybe they were running the ship from auxiliary control.
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Old March 4 2014, 05:56 PM   #13
Kevman7987
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Re: Something about Redemption Part II

Nebusj wrote: View Post
The question I'd always had about Redemption Part II was whether anybody was ever going to be courageous enough and tell Data that the ``bridge'' he was operating from was the supply closet, and that's why it was maybe six feet by four feet and didn't have any stations or anything.
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Wasn't the Sutherland undergoing repairs or somesuch when it was pulled into service? Maybe they were running the ship from auxiliary control.
How unfortunate for Data, they shove him into the supply closet sized auxiliary control with that jerk officer.
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Old March 4 2014, 06:01 PM   #14
Anwar
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Re: Something about Redemption Part II

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The Enterprise-C had suffered critical damage and apparently had not taken out one of the four Romulan warbirds, yet. The "last ship standing" must have been at least one of these warbirds (in order to take Tasha and the other survivors as prisoners to Romulus) and I'm sure the Romulans finished what they had begun (trying to frame the Federation for the assault, why else should the Klingons have turned onto the Federation and not the Romulans?)
I don't think it was the Ent-C's failure to save Narendra III that caused the War, it was just that things in general were bad between the Klingons and the Feds that led to war anyways. But then Narendra III happened which mollified most of the Klingons and led to an easier diplomatic thing between them.
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Old March 4 2014, 06:59 PM   #15
Robert Comsol
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Re: Something about Redemption Part II

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
But it did accomplish something, whether the Enterprise succeeded in saving the outpost or not. To the Klingons, it would not matter if the Enterprise won or not. What mattered was that the ship fought in a glorious battle on their behalf. It was the act, not the outcome, that was important and that won favor with the Klingons.
Exactly, but one or some Klingons needed to survive to tell the story.

And that's what was missing in the alternate reality (i.e. no Klingon survivors and therefore an opportunity for the Romulans - possibly together with the Duras family - to frame the Federation for it):

GARRETT [OC]: This is Captain Garrett of the Starship Enterprise, to any Federation ship. We have been attacked by Romulan warships and require immediate assistance. We've lost warp drive. Life support is failing.
RIKER: There's no record of the Romulans ever assaulting the Enterprise C.


Bob

P.S. Wow, I think I just got promoted to Commodore. Nice!
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